Connecting to existing Low Voltage wiring

kmccarty

New member
I am replacing an old DC with the CV1800. There were a bunch of wall switches in my shop that all could turn on the old DC which were wired together with what looks like CAT5 wire. Does anyone have a clue how to hook this up to the electrical box that comes with the CV? Can I hook it up to the relay inside the box or do I need to buy an additional component?
 

Jim O'Dell

Moderator
Sounds like it is low voltage wiring, maybe 24 volt. If you still have the transformer then use a contactor that is triggered by 24 volts and you are good to go, IF the original is wired correctly. Not sure an electrician can decipher it or not. Maybe an HVAC guy? With the old DC, did you have to turn it off at the switch it was turned on at, or could you turn it off at other switches? I can see the former working with all the switches wired in parallel, but honestly don't have a clue how to do the latter with DC, I'm sure it could be done, but don't know of a situation where that would be needed in any other type of install. How many and what type of switches are they? If regular 110 volt light switches, does anyone else here know if DC will work with the 3-way type light switches? I'm guessing it would, but have no basis for that. Can you post a picture of the switch? Maybe pulled out so we can see the wiring it's hooked to? Maybe seeing that will help one of us help you a little better.
Sorry, I've probably raised more questions than given answers. I have my CV1800 wired 110 volt trigger to a single light switch centrally mounted in the shop. It's no more than 5 steps from any of the tools hooked up to the cyclone. I could have used the 3-way light switches to have multiple on/off locations, but the wiring of those gives me headaches just thinking about it!!! :D Jim.
 

kmccarty

New member
It's just wired up to a regular light switch (with no ground)...there are 4 of them throughout the shop....each one would turn on/off the DC if switched. There is a 120/24 transformer that it is hooked up to. The old D/C was 240 volt as well...so I was confused why they used the 120v primary.

The wiring was done using CAT5 I think.
 

Jim O'Dell

Moderator
OK, one more question...if your turned the old system on with switch A, could you turn it off with switch B, C or D, or would it only turn off at switch A? If the latter, it's wired in parallel. If the former, they are 3-way switches. Either way, it should work the new cyclone the same way it did the old DC. You do need to make sure your contactor, if it is still wired in, is rated for the new higher horsepower cyclone. If not, you will need to change that out as well. They run about 25 bucks. Just make sure to get one that is the 24 volt trigger, and make sure the 240 circuit breaker is off when you do the wiring!!! :eek: Jim.
 

kmccarty

New member
I can use any switch to turn it off/on whenever...if they were wired in parallel I wouldn't even bother trying to hook it up since that would probably cause me headaches trying to figure out which switch I had thrown last....

So currently the box that I bought from CV has a 120v relay in it to operate the remote...I just need to figure out how to get this working with my 24v relay....guess I just wire it like a 3-way switch?

The original transformer is a 120/24 so I could wire that off off the remotes power and then hook up the relay to that....but wiring all the relays together is confusing....or it's too early in the morning....
 

kmccarty

New member
Here are some pics of the old wiring to give you a better idea...the white-ish wire that pops out of the wall is from the switches in the shop.
 

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Jim O'Dell

Moderator
Ok, I was about to throw in the towel but went back and reread your last 2 posts....I read the first of the two wrong. So let me regurgitate the info and see if I have this right. You have a 24 volt transformer powered of course by 110. Pictures 2 and 3 are of the transformer. Picture 1 confuses me still. Does it shows 2 hots and 2 grounds, or one hot, one neutral, and 2 grounds? The wire colors are not normal for 110 volt. Is this location a switch, the transformer location, or the old DC location, and is it 110 or 220? Picture 4 is obviously a switch, but it doesn't have enough wires for a 3 way switch, at least not a normal 110 volt 3 way light switch. And the wiring is not typical low voltage wiring, it looks like 14 guage that would be used on 110 volt.

Now, with that said. If the current relay triggers 110 voltage that powered the DC, then the easiest thing to do is run your 220 volt wire to a location close to where the old DC plugged in. Take that 110 volt line and use it to trigger the new relay (trigger terminals are generally on the sides of the relay with the power wires being switched running through the middle-follow your relay wiring instructions for this) Run your 220 into the relay input, attach the 220 wires from the output to the motor. Ground runs through without being switched by the relay. This way all switches work as they have been working.

Next question: How did the original DC hook up to power? Was it hardwired or did it plug into a wall outlet that was controlled by the relay and switches? If the former, you will have to cut the wire from the 24/110 relay and wire the wireless remote in there. If the latter, get an electrical box for the new 220 relay (that may come with the cyclone now?) wire your trigger wire where it comes out of the box and can plug into the outlet the original DC was plugged into. This way, you can unplug the trigger wiring, plug it into the wireless remote box, and plug the wireless remote box into the receptacle.It will allow your current low voltage switches to become the master power on/off, while your wireless remote acts as the cyclone on/off. If a low power switch is not on, the wireless remote will not operate the cyclone. This would keep the remote from picking up a weird signal and turn the cyclone on when you are away. I wired my system this way only I have only one light switch that is 110 that triggers a 110/220 relay to run the cyclone. I have never purchased the wireless remote as this setup works just fine for me. But if I decide to, it will just be a mount, unplug trigger wire and plug into the wireless remote box, and then plug the wireless remote box back into the outlet.

I hope this is clear. My suggestion is to get an electrician to check through everything. I am not an electrician, so I am only giving you information on what I think is right. Best to use a professional to make sure it IS right. If you decide to do this on your own, at least talk to an electrician about what you are doing. Maybe you have a friend or acquaintance that is an electrician. Run this past them. If you are inside city limits, call your local building permit office. Chances are you will need a permit. Also talk to your Insurance Agent. It is possible that if you, or an electrician, do any wiring without a permit and it burns down the house, you won't be covered on your insurance. Don't make the mistake and find out after the fact.
Good luck and let us know how it all turns out! Jim.
 

kmccarty

New member
The first picture is of the outlet for my original DC....it was 220V on a 20A circuit...all those pictures kind of go together like a puzzle of how the old DC was wired :) I was just going to take the 110v transformer/relay off the original and use it in the new one. I don't have any directions for the old transformer since I think it was made back in the 70s based on how it looks.

I have a new 30A outlet for the CV.....it is already hooked up and working just fine through using the remote.....just wanted to add in my old low voltage switches to it as well....and wanted all switches to work together. Like if I turn it on with the remote I can turn it off with a wall switch and vice-verse or turn on with a switch and turn off on another switch.

I might just get rid of the remote and just use my switches because I know how to do the wiring for just that and not sure I would every really use the remote anyway....
 

Jim O'Dell

Moderator
With both hooked up, you could turn on a switch, turn on with the remote, then turn off at switch or remote, but I don't think there is a way to turn it back on from the remote at that point, you would have to do a switch again in that sequence before the remote would work again. I guess if the remote triggered a 24 volt relay that is switched by 110, if such a thing exists, you could wire that in as one of the switches, again if they are 2 pole low voltage switches, and it might work. Lots of ifs there. I think though to use both, your switches would have to be a master on/off and the remote the cyclone on/off, which would be the safest way to wire a remote in my view.

The first picture is 220 huh? Did you have something 110 running off of it as well? The two black output wires connected to the one black input wire is confusing, as are the two ground wire inputs. Then the two ground wires go to a white wire. White is usually a neutral. Black is hot. Bare is ground. Red is hot in 220 wiring. If you had something 110 tagged on to the 220 circuit, it wasn't done right. There should have been a white input wire with the others to be done right. That's why there is 10-2 with ground (220 wiring) and 10-3 with ground (220 wiring with a neutral to be able to run 110 off the same circuit, say for a dryer or oven that uses 110 to run the timer) Yes, ground and neutral are bonded at the box, but are to be kept separate in the building's wiring. So it looks like you can use this as a 20 amp 220 tool outlet, but not as a 110 outlet.
Jim.
 
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bigjimak

New member
With both hooked up, you could turn on a switch, turn on with the remote, then turn off at switch or remote, but I don't think there is a way to turn it back on from the remote at that point, you would have to do a switch again in that sequence before the remote would work again. I guess if the remote triggered a 24 volt relay that is switched by 110, if such a thing exists, you could wire that in as one of the switches, again if they are 2 pole low voltage switches, and it might work. Lots of ifs there. I think though to use both, your switches would have to be a master on/off and the remote the cyclone on/off, which would be the safest way to wire a remote in my view.

The first picture is 220 huh? Did you have something 110 running off of it as well? The two black output wires connected to the one black input wire is confusing, as are the two ground wire inputs. Then the two ground wires go to a white wire. White is usually a neutral. Black is hot. Bare is ground. Red is hot in 220 wiring. If you had something 110 tagged on to the 220 circuit, it wasn't done right. There should have been a white input wire with the others to be done right. That's why there is 10-2 with ground (220 wiring) and 10-3 with ground (220 wiring with a neutral to be able to run 110 off the same circuit, say for a dryer or oven that uses 110 to run the timer) Yes, ground and neutral are bonded at the box, but are to be kept separate in the building's wiring. So it looks like you can use this as a 20 amp 220 tool outlet, but not as a 110 outlet.
Jim.

Jim,

It looks to me as if the power was run using 2 conductor with ground and a spare ground wire, probably tied to the first. It is as if the wrong wire was pulled (2 conductor + ground) and someone has tied the neutral (white) wire to ground which will function but may cause problems and is not according to code. Red is one pole, black is the other. Bare is ground.

To get the 120V for the relay, I'm guessing someone tied the third wire to black (which is OK) and took their Neutral return (white) and tied it to ground (bare),

In any event it is way out of current design standards.

The next question is as to the size of the wire. It is really hard to tell from a picture (you need to look at the imprint on the wire) but make sure it is #10 (10 gauge) to support a 30A load and not the smaller #12 (limited to 20A). If it is #12 the wiring back to the breaker panel should be replaced, IMO.

Jim is right though, it'd be worth a few dollars bribery to get an electrician to look at it. One key question for them, if they say it will work, is "Will it pass an electrical inspector?".

This is becoming an ever larger issue since, if you ever go to sell the house and they want to finance it, the lenders will ask if there has been any uninspected electrical modifications. If so they make you open it up to see if it passes. If not you must have it fixed before they will finance. If you lie and there's ever a fire tied to it after the sale, you remain liable for rebuilding the home for the new owner.

Pretty onerous...

My opinion.. YMMV... it may be different where you live.

Jim in Alaska
Registered Electrical Engineer
 

Jim O'Dell

Moderator
Jim, in kmccarty's last post, he mentioned that he has a new 220 circuit up and running already using the remote. So that tells me he is not using this circuit for the cyclone. Is that right kmccarty? Now looking at the picture, it looks like THNN wiring in conduit. Not sure why anyone would run two grounds and no neutral in that situation...just doesn't make sense. Of course, not knowing who did the wiring, anything is possible!! Since it was a 220 circuit, do you still need 220 for another tool close? Is the new 30 amp line for the cyclone on a different breaker (I sure hope so!) than this wiring? You could verify where the additional ground wire is hooked up in the breaker box, cut one loose, and have a properly wired x2 with ground 220 circuit, where x=the wire gauge. I'm guessing it's 12 gauge since it is a 20 amp circuit. But that is purely a guess. Or you could use one of the ground wires as a chaser to pull a white wire of the same gauge as the black and red, and have a proper 220/110 20 amp run. that you could choose what you wanted the circuit for. May not be easy, depending on how many turns it makes. I guess you could remark the red wire to white on both ends, change it to the neutral bus bar, and use it as 110. Remember any remarking of wiring must be done at all junction points which would include where it goes through a relay-both sides of a relay. I'd leave it as a 220 line, and reposition it if need be, that is if it is surface mount conduit as it appears to be in the picture. REMEMBER....I'm not an electrician. Again I'd run everything I did past an electrician to make sure it passes code.
mccarty, let us know what you decide to do! Remember, we love pictures! Jim.
 

kmccarty

New member
I was not planning on using this other outlet...the outlet itself is wired correctly....the picture might just make it look confusing cause there is an additional wire coming up from the bottom to enter it that is connected to the relay. The wiring of the old relay however is very suspect hehe.

I just need to be pointed to the correct relay/transformer to buy and I can figure out the wiring.
 

McRabbet

Senior Forum Member
kmccarty:

I've not posted in this thread to this point, but I would err on the side of safety and avoid possible code violations (which could impact any future insurance claim or home resale) by not using this wiring and relay. Low voltage/low amperage wiring should never use wires designed for carrying normal home wiring and they should rarely be mixed in the same enclosures. That is what it looks like your predecessor left you. Normal door bells or chimes use 24 Volt transformers and smaller gauge wire (20-24 ga) and is usually run with "zipwire" in wall cavities, and the wiring is separated from NM cables for switches and outlets carrying house power. I would tear out all of this old wiring and start fresh (if you want a multi-switch system) with appropriate wire in boxes clearly marked with their purpose.

To me, cyclones are easiest to operate with a wireless remote, with the remote receiver controlling the supply voltage to the 240VAC contactor that in turn manages the power to the cyclone blower. If you want to stay with a 24V system, use a conventional 120V wireless remote outlet like the Lamson HW2190 to control the supply voltage to a 24V AC bell transformer that in turn supplies the coil of a 240VAC contactor with a 24 volt coil like the Fasco H230A. Simple, reliable and you have control of the cyclone from anywhere in your shop (I pin my transmitter to my shop apron). I actually think it is easier to use a Fasco H230B with a 120VAC coil and completely eliminate the need for the 24 Volt transformer.

Hope this helps. Had to add my .02
 

Jim O'Dell

Moderator
Ok, the more I look at the pictures, the more I think I figure out...and the more I get confused. I'm soooo curious as to how this system is wired and how it works, that I keep trying to figure it out. I think what is the bottle neck for me is the wiring coming into the switch box looks to be standard 110 volt wiring. Is this actually one of the 24 volt line switches? If so the wiring is overkill, but at least it makes what happen from there a little more understandable, at least from a color scheme. The only other thing that makes sense is the bell wire (4 color thin wire in the beige sheathing) in all 4 pictures...that should be the 24 volt wiring. Does each switch location have these two components (switch and transformer), or is this the only one with the transformer?

Again, the 4th picture shows what appear to be 3 feed wires. The color and number of wires make me think 110 volt. The switch is used to break or make a circuit, although in 110 volt wiring, the wrong lead is used for this- it would be the neutral making the switch instead of the hot in this set up. And if it is 220 volt, then the white should have been remarked red, and the switch is wrong...it is only breaking one of the two hot leads. If it is 24 volt, then I understand the black bypassing the switch because in DC, black is ground. But the fact that these wires feed the transformer also makes me think the incoming wires in picture 4 are 110 volt to power the transformer. The bell wiring is then taking the 24 volt out to the switches and/or the 24 volt triggered 220 volt relay...which brings me back to the earlier question of is there a transformer with each switch. But even if there is, I don't see how one switch could turn on the system and another switch turn it off. Unless there is a complicated 24 volt relay system wired in, which I bet there's not.
This is the trouble with trying to do this long distance. We can't trace the wiring to see where it goes to understand how it is doing what it is doing.

I'm with McRabbit....the only safe thing I can suggest is to scrap the system and re-do it to have multiple access points if that is what you want. There might be a way to wire 110 volt trigger through an X-10 system to activate/deactivate the 110 volt triggered 220 volt relay. That would simplify the wiring, but I've not priced out X-10 components...I'd bet it wouldn't be cheap. The other way is with 110 volt wiring and multiple 3-way switches. Again, not cheap, but possibly less than the X-10 system. The other way is to get someone in-the-know to design a 24 volt muti-point access system. To me, the remote is sure starting to sound like a great idea.....:D Let us know how it goes. Jim.
 
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