Hello & Clear Vue Comparison & Questions

[Backhertz]

Hi all,
I am a novice woodworker. I've used most wood tools, but I don't consider myself a master of any. I'll be reaching the 53rd milestone this year. I hurt my back in a work injury but only my email name gives it away. I was considered by some as an expert in air traffic control radar systems. One door closes & another opens. So now I plan to work with wood and develop my skills without destroying my lungs.

My wood shop dream will soon be a reality. I was going to simply build it in my basement in 2006, but after contacting Bill Pentz and reading the information about dust control on his web site, I canceled that idea. Now I'm building it on to the back of my garage. It will have one purpose: to make wood chips...

So the other day, I was looking at information on different cyclones, swirl tubes, and such. I was surprised when I came across a comparison which actually showed the Clear Vue contrasted against the models made by the manufacturer. Unfortunately, I did not save it, nor do I even remember the name. Perhaps I can't find it because it was bull donkey.

This "comparison" actually showed a picture of the the Clear Vue impeller. The picture was not a good one as it showed what appeared to be a home-made impeller. The company stated their impeller was far better and the graphs they showed had the Clear Vue performance well below theirs. They had pictures showing poor seams vs their welded ones.

I was not impressed. Have any of you seen this so-called comparison?

Getting back to reality, my wood shop will start off with a Shopsmith, a stand-alone Shopsmith 12" planer, and and another stand-alone Shopsmith power base. I also have a band saw, belt sander, and a jointer. I'm not sure which one to keep permanently set up. In my conversations with Bill P, he wasn't all that impressed with Shopsmith, but the price was right. I inherited it. My father purchased it after seeing a guy using it in a mall. He probably only had 20 hours on it and never used it again. I upgraded it last year to the 520 model. I'm looking at buying a fence (Deluxe Bandsaw Fence System) which is on sale ($168)for my Shopsmith band saw.

My wood shop goal will be to make my own kitchen and bathroom cabinets. The New Yankee Workshop on PBS is doing a series on a complete kitchen. Episode 2 was on yesterday. So with that primary purpose in mind, my shop will be set up to accomplish this. If anyone has any recommendations, I would appreciate it.

My shop plan will be 12 X 20 add on to my existing attached garage. This part of a project to extend the second story of my house over the attached garage for a new master bedroom, build a 10,000 watt solar power system and convert over to geothermal heatpump. My spousal unit of 34 years has developed a serious allergy to dust. Since a geothermal heat pump needs to "breathe", I'm replacing the existing 4 & 5 inch round ducts with 6 inch to accommodate the high volume of air flow required.

I'll be doubling the length of my single-car-attached garage. I will have a divider between the two sections. I figure this will all me to double my work space when needed. I would appreciate any suggestions from any of you as I have a little time left. My architect is still working on a preliminary design. My electrician is going to run a separate panel into my garage which will be used for both the new addition and the wood shop. I'm thinking a 100 amp panel would suffice.

I want a electrical service which will provide power for an adequate sized dust collection system for my wood shop. Would the CV-1400 suffice? I don't envision using more than one tool at a time in addition to the dust collector.

So anyhow, that's my story. I look forward to any comments, recommendations or suggestions. Thanx in advance.

 

[Jim O'Dell]

All I can tell you about the Clear Vue impeller is it is welded very well. There are NO gaps at all. You need to dig the article up and share where it came from. Otherwise, it just sounds like sour grapes from someone. Jim.

 

[Backhertz]

Sour Grapes

Sour Grapes

Hi Jim,

Here is the link on the Oneida web site:
http://www.oneida-air.com/newsite/oneida_advantages/competitive_comparisons.php

The pics are here:
http://www.oneida-air.com/newsite/oneida_advantages/photo comparison oneida and clearvue 5-07.php

I had cleared my history and couldn't remember for the life of me where I had seen the graphs and pics. I just stumbled on it again by accident.

I have no idea of what to believe. I noticed Bill Pentz wrote a letter a while ago recommending the Oneida 3 HP as well as Ed's Clear Vue.

What do you think?

Tony

 

[dwdrury]

Lots of Stuff!

Lots of Stuff!

Backhertz,

Wow! Lots of stuff there to cover! And I get to opine! What could be better?

Now, please don't confuse me with an "expert". It is a hobby at which I dabble. Thus all I can offer is the experience of the mistakes I've made, and I've made a lot. But the nice thing about woodworking is we can burn our mistakes. Not like your previous profession, where they seem to burn themselves, and generate a lot of bad publicity in the process.

Though I didn't get as good a deal as you, I managed years ago (about 25 or so) to acquire my Shopsmith at roughly half price, back then. I think I'd describe it as a "medium duty" type tool. It has held up well, and there are some things you can do with one that are difficult or impossible with stand alone machines. But it is a compromise. There is some flex in, for example, the table in drill press mode, which can mess up the hole you're drilling.

The thing scares me as a table saw, just too "wobbly", and I know a few folks who've managed to remove fingers with them. It can be used successfully as a table saw, and there are folks who have just the Shopsmith and are very happy with it. Know your and its limitations, use push blocks, feather boards, and keep your fingers well clear. I have a stand alone table saw, and do not use that feature on my Shopsmith.

The first thing to learn is where to stand. Being self taught, I learned the hard way (several times, which may help explain some things) but fortunately managed to keep all appendages. The answer to the "where to stand" question is "wherever the tool isn't going to fling the workpiece". You also want a spot where you can still control the workpiece yet are extended enough so your body will naturally oppose arms, fingers and the like getting pulled in should a cutter grab a workpiece. So before most any operation, think what can go wrong and plan to be elsewhere.

Perhaps the most useful resource I found early in my wood butchering was the early issues of WoodSmith. The guy who started it, Don Penshe (spelling?), was a shop teacher and emphasized how to make the cuts and do the tasks. He didn't just provide a laundry list of steps, ala Wood, for instance. His mantra seemed to be that one should "sneak up" on a cut, meaning make your first cut on a table saw a wee bit long, maybe a sixteenth oversize, then trim off a whisker, and another and another until you reach your desired dimension. The later cuts, since they're not full profile of the saw blade, work the motor and blade less, thus will be smoother with less or no chipout. Though WoodSmith still provide similar helpful hints, Don's either gone or well into retirement, and its not quite as instructive as in years past. Still, it remains one of my favorites.

As for attachments, when I bought the used one it came with the bandsaw (an older model) and joiner. Since then, I've added a few of Shopsmith's SPTs, but the one I use the most is the planer, which I like a lot. Especially when mounted to the Mark V, as that gives you variable cutterhead speed along with the standard variable feedrate. So you can avoid the washboard look, and assuming the cutters aren't nicked, end up with needing very little sanding or hand planing.

Changing cutters is a pain, but it can be done in a couple hours with practice, maybe even less. Keep the table well waxed. With real wax, not car wax. Minwax, Brewax, among others, are decent paste waxes for the job. And if you haven't gotten or didn't come with the serrated infeed roller, get and install it. Also go ahead and get a second set of blades and Shopsmith's conical sanding disk and planer shapening jig as they help quite a bit. I use EZ-Lap paddles to touch up the blades between sharpenings, after having built the little honing jig as described in the owner's manual.

Bandsaw: As I said, mine's an older model, but I did convert it to the newer dust collection scheme, which does a so-so job. Also, if yours doesn't have them, convert to the full ball bearing blade rollers. Pay no attention to the tension scale. Instead, pull the upside of the blade away from the back bearing with something like the Shopsmith all purpose allen wrench and "ping" it for tone. A properly tightened blade will "sing", resonate like a guitar string, about an A pitch. I detension mine after use, so as not to permanently flex the tension bar, and unload the wheel bearings and blade joint. I installed Cool Blocks for blade tracking. Also, get good blades. While the standard Shopsmith ones are decent, I really like the Highland Hardware Wood Slicer for resawing.

Joiner: Never really had much need for this SPT, as with a good, sharp blade on the table saw, such as a Freud F410 GP blade, the cut is plenty smooth for gluing. Also, at least on my older one, the attachment that holds the fence to the bar, for left / right adjustment, is cast aluminum. It flexes a bit, to the point where it can protrude above the infeed table, which hoses up the cut.

Strip Sander: A bit pricy, but does the job. Don't overbuy belts. I learned recently the adhesive used in making sanding belts has a shelf life. Some manufacturers say after a year or two the glue is toast, but I've gotten more.

Don't waste your money on the mortising bits and attachment. The table flexes too much to make decent mortises, even with the outrigger post. The drum sander, though, is worth it. I also got the biscuit cutter, but have only used it once. Just not a biscuit joint kind of guy, I suppose.

Most of the Shopsmith tools and attachments use 2.5" dust ports. And converting them to accept larger hoses is problematic at best. It may behoove you to get one of the little CV 06 Minis as well.

I can second Jim's comment regarding the impeller. I thought they were outsourced, machine and factory made until I learned Matt makes all of them and only outsources the powder coating.

My first shop was similar in size to what you have planned. I suggest to you that it'll be way too small. If you're going to make cabinets, you'll only be able to do one at a time, and your shop will be a tight squeeze while its being assembled. My current shop is 16 x 18, and still too small (well, maybe if I could clear out half the junk, it'd be a different story). I'm thinking about 24 square would be about right, a true 2 car garage size. Though others have, as have I, made some nice stuff in the more cramped quarters, even cabinets like you describe. But over time, I think, you're going to find the shop more suited to smaller projects, like clocks and jewelry boxes. Thus if you're building, and have the choice, think bigger.

The choice between the CV 1400 and CV 1800 really should key off ceiling height. The shorter cone and barrel of the 1400, though for the same motor / impeller combination, should yield slightly less separation efficiency, and thus is a compromise to be able to squeeze into basements where head room is a problem and still get a decent barrel under it. If you've got the head room in a stand alone building, go for the 1800.

In the early days, WoodSmith claimed you could build all their projects with but a router, used both hand held and mounted in a table, plus a table saw. Yes, but. You also need a reasonably good drill press, and the Shopsmith is adequate for that provided you account for its tendency to flex. And you'll want to get your paws on a decent finish sander and cordless drill. For cabinets, and assuming you have a compressor, you'll also find a brad nailer handy for attaching face frames and backs.

And some good hand tools, especially chisels. I have a Japanese set. The only tricky part is learning how to sharpen. I go for a mirror polish on the bevel, and use one of those side grabbing chisel / plane iron jigs. Problem with using something like the Veritas jig is it keys off the back side of the chisel, which on Japanese versions, isn't necessarily parallel to the bottom. I use 12" diamond stones, though I finish up and get the high polish with a 6000 grit water stone. You can get the chisel so sharp you can actually stick it about 3/16s into your finger and not feel it. First indication is there's blood all over the workpiece. Three guesses how I discovered that trivia.

As for cabinets, I built all the ones in our garage, plus some additional ones for the house. For both, you're really just making a box. I make ones with face frames, as I prefer that type, with overlay doors. For the garage and shop, the doors are simply a piece of plywood with outer edge rounded over and inner edge undercut with a cove. The boxes were hardwood ply, and I even made the face frames out of it. You don't need to dowel or biscuit, just be sure you line up the face pieces as your gluing. Not much stock there to sand if you don't get them aligned. Made that mistake as well.

For the house cabinets, the actual box was essentially the same, just hardwood for the face and solid, raised panel doors. Profiles were done on a router table with a great honkin' Freud cutter. Make many shallow passes, sneaking up on the profile, as Penshe advised.

Take your time and concentrate on the task. That's how an acquaintance of mine lost two fingers on his Shopsmith. It was late in the day, he was ripping small strips, got tired but wanted to get finished. His concentration slipped, then the workpiece slipped, then the blade grabbed it and pulled his fingers in. I can usually feel myself getting tired or concentration slipping, and I know its time to shut everything down before I hurt myself. It is, after all, just a hobby for me.

Well, I've rambled on for quite a while here, plus hit the character limit. Probably time to give my fingers and your eyes a break.

Regards,

DWD

 

[dwdrury]

Other Claims

Other Claims

Tony,

Seems I took so long crafting the other response, you snuck in with the Oneida links.

I reviewed them. I didn't spy any outright lies. Some statements intended to put them in a better light, to be sure. And also keep in mind most of us on this forum are ClearVue customers, so of course we're also going to be partial, but to CV instead of Oneida.

I think it fair to state Oneida makes some capable machines. And it is their bread and butter. So of course they're also rightly proud of their product. One could purchase either one of their machines or a CV, I think, and be both happy with the decision and as protected as one can get from wood dust. Certainly both are much better than "sweeping up after" or even my earlier attempt at dust control using a Delta two stage, 1 HP collector plus an overhead air cleaner type box.

Now, to some specifics. Though Oneida attempts to cast aspersions on CV's use of PETG plastic, it is actually more expensive a material than steel. And it yields a "neat-o" factor as you can see what's happening. Is it better? Worse? Same? It won't rust, that's for sure, and here in a salt marsh environment, that is a consideration for me. So I consider CV's use of PETG an advantage, not disadvantage.

Not going to compare and contrast Leeson versus Baldor, only that both seem to have a good reputation.

As for impellers, yes, Oneida's is pretty, and apparently quieter as well. But Matt's is a material handling design, steel, just in case one manages to overfill the barrel and suck chips through it. Oneida's? Can't tell if its aluminum or steel. If the former, won't spark if a nail hits it, but may, and I emphasize MAY, require occasional cleaning for optimal performance. Just the nature of airrfoil designs, according to the literature.

As for filters, Rick Wynn does a good job discussing filters and filter performance, so won't reiterate that here. The take-away for me was that Oneida squeezes a lot of airflow through a single filter, of comparible media area to one of the two recommended for a CV installation. Now, that means a lot more air has to pass through the media, which in turn means bigger holes in the media. And it shows up in the small diameter dust passage rate, even with the somewhat unrealistic ASHRAE test procedure.

I did note on their fan curve they published the CV 1800 and Super Gorilla 3 HP without filters. Perhaps their trying to squeeze all that air through their single filter presents a problem for them?

Some of the other claims are misleading as well. $50 for a couple of pieces of 2x4 and a 12 x 26 piece of 3/4 ply? What many of us have lying around as scrap?

Also, CV either bundles or makes available at close to their cost the 230V relay and a Long Ranger remote control.

As an aside, the cone bottom on mine isn't anywhere near as open as the example shown in Oneida's photo. But as it'll be covered by the (supplied) flex hose, it has no impact on performance or even asthetics.

At the end of the day, with either system, one needs to do the sums. The machine itself is only part of it. You need piping, flex hose, various other bits and pieces for a working system. Thus you need to find other suppliers, maybe even your local big box, and do the sums. Then you need to figure out if you might derive some pride and enjoyment from the somewhat greater assembly process with the CV, if you prefer its clear material or would rather have steel, etc.

Bottom line, for me, was about equal, and I was comparing the 3 HP Super Gorilla to CV 1800. So it was other factors that swayed my decision, as alluded to above. Plus the forums and photo gallery here at CV I found very helpful. But that's the nice thing about having choices and options, the result of your analysis may yield a different conclusion, as you may place different valuations on the various aspects.

Regards,

DWD

 

[Backhertz]

People Told Me I Wrote Too Much...

People Told Me I Wrote Too Much...

DWD,
I really do appreciate your time in sharing your experience and knowledge. Books contain most information, but the school of hard knocks is often one too expensive to get into.

Fortunately, I have not yet seen the preliminary plans from my architect. But I will definitely have the wood shop as large as possible. One good thing is that I will also have the other half of my garage for when I'm doing large projects.

As for the Oneida comparison, I wonder one thing. What is the weight comparison between a CV-1800 and a 3.0 HP Gorilla? They make an inference which disturbs me is their inference that the Clear Vue is PVC and therefore is against the National Fire Code. They list a bunch of thing which include the impeller not being hardened & up to woodworker codes. Here it is:
http://www.oneida-air.com/newsite/oneida_advantages/clearvue_comparison.php

Having down some work in wood shops, I've seen what happens when someone isn't being careful, such as table saw launching a little missile into a wall or a person trying to hold a piece of wood in their hands, off the stop on a radial arm saw. The first tooth of the saw and will drive that wood at high speed into a back wall.... that happened to me. Like anything inherently dangerous, strict adherence to safety guild lines is not optional no matter who you are.

I'm gonna be sure to purchase good quality blades for all my tools. The old saying you get what you pay for is very applicable to wood working tools.

Thanx,

Tony

 

[dwdrury]

With great effort, hopefully this will be shorter

With great effort, hopefully this will be shorter

Tony,

I saw that comparison page, though didn't pay a lot of attention to that particular box as the CV cyclone isn't PVC, but PETG. The latter is more durable, according to the literature, and slots in between acrylic (Plexiglas) and polycarbonate (Lexan) for brittleness and shock absorption.

Some folks do use PVC for ducting, some use steel pipe. Pentz, I think, successfully debunked any fire or explosion potential within PVC piping, so I'll not rehash the gory details. Up to the installer to decide what to use in his own shop, as each has advantages and disadvantages.

I did notice, upon additional review, Oneida's impellers are aluminum, apparently cast. Again, there are advantages and disadvantages to both the material and design. My old Delta "dust pump", for example, has a similar, cast aluminum fan, and I've had no problems. Indeed, for a machine that doesn't have nearly as good separation, like my old Delta, use of aluminum is almost a necessity as there is a larger potential for nails and the like to strike the fan. And were it steel, there's greater potential for spark. But as a material, cast aluminum is also less ductile, thus more prone to cracking and impact damage than steel. This isn't to say Oneida's fans have shown that tendency, and I don't know, either way, if they've had any such problems. Plus, if they did, the fix would be simple: more beef, more material in their casting.

As for weight, well, their motor's heavier, the steel for their construction is heavier, it all adds up. If you're buying by the pound, then, yes, the Oneida has more mass. But we're buying for performance, which I think is more similar. You wouldn't select a laptop computer or sports car, for instance, by picking the heavier one.

Again, bottom line is personal preference as I think total system costs and likely performance will be near enough the same to call them even. Thus you're left with the "other" category upon which to base your decision.

And you're quite right about the woodworking tool industry being competitive enough so that you pretty much get what you pay for. Think a good half of my collection is junk, purchased for a single task until I realized I'd be using something similar more often. Another lesson learned the hard way.

Regards,

DWD

 

[McRabbet]

Some Additional Details about the CV Impeller

Some Additional Details about the CV Impeller

Tony,

Just a brief addition to DWD's posts on the impeller. The CV 15" impeller is fabricated from 3/16" steel and the vanes are solid welded onto the plate in a jig that keeps the main plate from warping. They weld on a tapered shaft hub that centers the motor shaft to eliminate any wobble. Every one is carefully balanced before they leave their shop.

On the pictures I've included, you'll see a closeup of the tapered hub and solid welds on the vanes. The second picture shows the flatness of the impeller plate and the small drill impressions right and left from the balancing process.

Hope these help. Regards,

Rob Payne
McRabbet Woodworks

 

[Matt]

Impeller Welds

Impeller Welds

I just came in to address the appearance of the impeller from the onedia site and found that it has been done already. Thank you Rob for putting the pictures up.


Thanks to everyone,

Matt

 

[Dog House]

Onedia must be losing some business to resort to competitor bashing. Independent testing by American Woodworker... advertising pays for the magazine... don't imagine it would look very good if an avertiser's machine came up second.

Best to ignore them. I know what I bought and am quite happy with it and can attest to the EXCELLENT service I recived from Ed & Company.

Ed and Matt, you must be doing something right when you get noticed by the "BIGGIES" Keep up the good work!

Fred

 

[Backhertz]

Impeller

Impeller

Rob,
Thanks for the pics. Your pics clearly shows a continuous weld along the vanes and depict a quality made impeller. In contrast, the one on the manufacturer comparison page, showed what appeared to be two tack welds per vane. This gave me a negative impression of the impeller and the brief thought that the cast aluminum impeller was superior without giving it a second thought other than what I saw with my eyes.

I believe the comparison by the manufacturer was clearly taken with one purpose in mind and that had nothing to do with being objective. Surely there is enough business for everyone to make a buck without this kind of baloney.

My intent was not to infer Clear Vue products are inferior. I suppose it often comes down to one thing for most people: the reveal. Most people are superficial and give no regard to water is below a layer of paint or things they can't see. Fortunately, I had done my homework. I have no respect for people of businesses that distort the public like a shady used car salesman often does.

Tony

 

[Jim O'Dell]

I have no idea of what to believe. I noticed Bill Pentz wrote a letter a while ago recommending the Oneida 3 HP as well as Ed's Clear Vue.

What do you think?

Tony

Tony, thanks for the links. I didn't realize you were talking about their website information. I thought you were talking about articles in another publication. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
I'm a little concerned in that the criteria for the numbers given for each unit is not there. Were they comparing apples to apples? I don't know. I don't have the funds to have the test done myself, and my guess is that no one will ever do that. You mention that Bill wrote something somewhere that said the OAS 3 hp SG was a recommended unit with the Clear Vue? I've never seen that, and it would be contrary to what Bill has written to me and on the various wood forums over the last 2 years. If you could find that article, I'd appreciate a copy or a link. You may not have seen this, but Bill and Dean (OAS) don't get along very well. I don't think you would want to invite both of them to a wedding.
One note on the PTEG/steel debate. (Notice OAS just calls it plastic? hmm...) Do you know what else is made from PTEG? Ever seen the cops in full riot gear? Those shields they carry are made from PTEG. Does that give you any indication as to the strength of this material?
Another thought on the PVC vs steel for ductwork. Bill recommends PVC because it has the lowest drag of any of the possibilities, even spiral. Price wise, it is very economical, IF you can find a supplier of the SD2729, or even find a supply house that knows what it is!! And Bill actually wrote to me, from a post I made on a wood forum, and said that I should use metal ducting if I was running it in the attic of my shop, where it would not be seen, as a safety measure. If I ever hit a nail and caused a spark that caught some wood on fire, it could be out of sight and I wouldn't know I had a problem until it was too late. I changed how I ran my pipe because of this. ( I had already purchased the pipe and a lot of the fittings.) I didn't have the head room in my shop to run it below the ceiling, (7' 8") so I made a "tunnel" of sorts that the pipe runs in that is open to the shop so that I can see the pipe at all times.
I agree with DWD that you have to look at the whole picture, take into account all the different aspects of each, and decide for yourself which is best for you. For me it was the Clear Vue. I also liked the idea that it is the Bill Pentz design, for maximum separation of the small particles, and that he would benefit from the sale, even if in a small way. I had actually contacted Bill about getting one of his kits that he and his son offered for sale at one time, but by the time I was ready to do this, they had quit making them.
I've had my CV operational for about a year now. It does a wonderful job. Jim.

 

[Backhertz]

The Letter

The Letter

Jim,
Here is the link to the letter:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16542&page=2

It is a from a post to a this thread, " Does Oneida have something to fear from Grizzly?" on the Saw Mill Creek Woodworker Forum dated 2/4/2005, 4:18 P.M. It begins:

Guys,
This is a post by Bill Pentz on the FOG. It is a very informative post and I believe it has the info i was saying about Grizzly not wanting his initial help.
Paul

Here is the first line of the last paragraph:

"Currently I only recommend dust collection from Felder, the 3 hp Oneida-Air cyclone, the WoodSucker II, and my designs either in the form of kits or plastic Clear Vue units from Ed Morgano."

I'm not trying to stir up any trouble. I try to be thorough in my research and there is far more information on the Internet than I can process. My interest in dust collection began in 2006 when I planned to build a wood shop in my basement. This is how I stumbled on to Bill's website. I was so impressed, I even sent a donation via PayPal which Bill thanked me for. He answered all my questions and even sent me an updated Excel file with the plan for building his miniature cyclone. I built one. I listened to him & did not put my wood shop in the basement. I'm having my single-car-attached garage lengthened about 20 feet and will set up a wood shop with one focus: my health.

I've actually been looking for a good central vacuuming system in order to reduce dust inside my home. I'd like one with a Lamb vacuum 117507 motor. The reason I bought a new motor off of Ebay for $60 to use with the mini cyclone I constructed. I remembered on the Clear Vue Gallery, a picture of a set up where a guy had a mini cyclone CV06 which appeared to be tied into shop vac powered central vac system. Even though I built my own mini cyclone, I'd prefer to have one which I can see through. Here is the link:
http://www.gallery2.clearvuecyclones.com/v/Mini+CV06/ScottBeresford/100_0594.jpg.html

I sure would like to know if anyone knows if Scott's setup is for a home central vacuum system?

Tony

 

[dwdrury]

Oneida may have helped us out

Oneida may have helped us out

No need to apologize, Tony. Its comments and questions such as yours that add to the knowledge base. Case in point is your bringing to my attention the Oneida photo comparison.

They may have inadvertently helped me out. If you read that great Noise Control thread, you know I've said I plan to test some noise reduction ideas, short of constructing a dedicated cabinet or room.

Part of the plan is to make some "dock foam" (styrofoam) conical inserts to attach to the center of the impeller, to see if they might help with the noise. I'd planned a straight cone, then one sort of bullet shaped, where the sides are convex, and a third where the sides concave. I'd reckoned the things should be about 3 to 4" tall, maybe 5" in diameter, give or take.

But take a close look at the backplane area close to the hub of Oneida's impeller. Notice how it "ramps up" to the thickness of the hub, then sort of blends down. Perhaps that's all that's needed, a little blending in the blade root area. Hmmm. Another configuration to test!

Regards,

DWD

 

[Backhertz]

Noise Control

Noise Control

DWD,
Noise control has always been an interest of mine. One of the radar systems I worked on is the current terminal radar workhorse of the the FAA at major airports: an ASR-9 primary working with the Mode S secondary radar systems. These systems produce huge amounts of heat which is controlled by large blowers with wire mesh RFI filters either on the front or rear of the cabinets. The sound created is not deafening, but it is enough to prevent a conversation from being heard and is annoying. To mitigate the sound, a companies specializing in baffle construction were called in.

The result was not a total elimination of noise, but enough so the radar equipment room can be used without ear protection. What was done was building baffle units which are on small casters. A baffle is simply rolled up so it's flush with a cabinet door, covering completely the wire-mesh filter. The baffle is nothing more than a heavy box which is lined with acoustical foam. Some are made of metal; some are made from wood. One the Mode S, this box as wide as a cabinet door, ~ 48" by perhaps 12 inches deep and 18" high. It is completely open on the floor side which is perhaps, an inch or two off the floor.

On the ASR-9 radar cabinets, the the filters are on the rear of the cabinets in various places & heights on the rear of the enclosed equipment cabinets. The same thing is done: covering of the filter with a baffle that has an opening close to the floor or at least two feet away from the filter. Air flow is maintained, however the annoying sound is significantly mitigated to the point that a person in the equipment room will be able to use a phone or not require ear protection.

I'm sure this is some sort of inverse square function going on. The air flow, rather than coming from directly in front of a wire mesh filter, now comes from another clear opening and passes over the acoustical foam. The noise created through the mesh, is apparently blocked by the air rushing in. Voila, quiet!

That was too simple. What is needed perhaps,is some kind of passive and active cyclonic noise filter which together would create a 180 phase to cancel out the loud noise in a way similar to a noise-elimination headset does. The passive part might be something as simple as acoustical foam which would act on 99% of the noise like the cyclone or swirl tube does on dust. The active part would simple be an electronic device to mitigate what gets through in the same fashion the filters keep the fine particle dust from filling up a room. Although this idea is pretty far fetched, the point is to save an very often overlooked function of our bodies until it is too late: our hearing.

I've been to most of the radar sites in the country. There is one thing common among them: they are noisy and many of the older radar techs have lost part of their hearing. Myself? I have constant tinnitus in my right ear and can't hear very well in it or the other very well either. As a result, new OSHA rules have dictated the use of baffles on new equipments where the noise can't be eliminated by design, or ensure people working in high noise environments have adequate ear protection. Myself? I use Bose noise-canceling headphones if I'm at a radar site. There are many other companies making headphones just as good or better.

Here is some more info to consider. This time I'm including the link, as well as, the item from this link:
http://www.ccohs.ca/oshanswers/phys_agents/noise_auditory.html

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]What is the relationship between noise exposure and hearing loss?[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]From the scientific data accumulated to date, it is possible to determine the risk of hearing loss among a group of noise exposed persons. To do this we need the following data: [/FONT]

• [FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]
  [*]A measure of daily noise exposure level
  [*]Duration of noise exposure (months, years)
  [*]Age of person [/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]

[/FONT][/FONT]​

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT][/FONT]

[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Figure 1[/FONT][/FONT]​

[/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Figure 1. Percent of exposed population with hearing loss greater than 25 dB for various noise levels and years of exposure as given by the ISO 1999-1990 method. Hearing loss is defined as average threshold shift at 500, 1000, 2000 and 3000 Hz. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif] [/FONT][FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Noise-induced hearing loss occurs randomly. All exposed persons are not affected equally. Some highly susceptible people lose their hearing ability faster than others. Given a noise-exposed person, it is not possible to determine whether or not his or her hearing loss is due to noise. However, in a group of exposed persons, the percentage of population with hearing loss depends on the level of noise exposure and the duration of exposure. For higher noise exposure levels, and longer durations of exposures, a larger percentage of exposed persons acquire hearing loss. This observation forms the basis for calculating noise-induced hearing loss as outlined in the international standard ISO1999-1990 and American National Standard ANSI S3.44 - 1996.[/FONT]


[FONT=Verdana,Arial,Helvetica,sans-serif]Tony
[/FONT]

 

[dwdrury]

Hearing loss

Hearing loss

Tony,

As you've got me beat by a year, you're probably better off with only one ear having a constant ringing. Mine's in both. The bright side is its balanced, so I'm not constantly trying to reach for the adjustment knob.

Forgot the number but I think I put it on the other thread, but I seem to recall the ring has a pitch around 8K to 10K Hz for me. Too much sex, drugs and Rock 'n' Roll? Perhaps, but more likely Garrett APUs. And being married, we know the first of the laundry list is right out.

The idea of blocking and absorbing noise waves is essentially the same reason a carpeted, drapery lined room sounds "dead" as compared to a concrete floor, wood paneled room when one installs a decent sound system. There are a couple of local restaurants I can't visit. One has wood floors, wood walls, and the ceiling, which follows the roof rafters, is also pine planking. After about two minutes there, my hearing totally shuts down and all I hear is the ringing. The other is similar, but with carpeted floor, not quite so bad.

Thus the surest way of capturing, blocking, thus reducing noise generated by something like the cyclone would be to enclose it in an insulation lined enclosure, and blocking sound waves from any breathing holes via baffles. Jameel and others got good results from such an exercise.

Unfortunately for me and perhaps others, various restrictions look as though they'll preclude me from doing the same. Can't add on as then I'll run afoul of the Property Owners Gestapo. Don't want to chew up shop space. Which leaves me to putting it into an attached garage, squeezing it between a wall and overhead door track. With but an inch or two of clearance, an enclosure just isn't feasible.

The saving grace for me would be that it'll be on the other side of a common wall between shop and garage, but it will make the garage noisy when the cyclone is in operation. Thus I think some experimentation is in order. While not particularly hopeful, given others' attempts, perhaps they'll finally confirm or deny some of my and others' speculations. And I think the few things I plan to try will be relatively easy to accomplish.

But I am running about 4 months behind. Old age creeping up on me, it appears.

Regards,

DWD

 

[Jim O'Dell]

Jim,
Here is the link to the letter:
http://www.sawmillcreek.org/showthread.php?t=16542&page=2

(snip)
Tony

Thanks Tony. I appreciate the post. I do remember that thread...in fact, I have several posts in it myself. It was back when I was still trying to decide what unit to get. I purchased my CV about 2 months later.
But things can change in the almost 3 years since that was written. And I don't want to put words into Bill's mouth here, so I will only hope that Ed will urge Bill to come on here and answer for himself how he currently feels about what cyclones out there will do what needs to be done for collecting the fine dust that can be so harmful to us.
One other thing I would suggest that you do is write to Ed, and to Oneida, and any other company that is on your short list, and see if they have anyone in your area with one of their cyclones that would allow you to visit. I just had a guy drive up from Austin a week ago last Sunday to look at my set up. I have no idea what type of cyclone he will end up with. But I think he went away with a better understanding of what he needs to do. I believe Ed has said in the past that he would try to help in getting someone to open up their shop for an informal get together to look at the Clear Vue. My shop is open for anyone to come by and look. I'm sure Oneida and the others would feel the same way. Maybe that would help you in the decision you have before you.
Continue to ask questions! It maks us all think. Jim.

ps: This particular post has a good drawing and description by Jim Becker on building a baffel return from an enclosed cyclone and filter to return air to the shop while killing some of the noise. If I ever go the route of filters, I will be building one of these up in the attic to return the air to the shop.