Maximum Hose Length With a Mini?
- Thread starter stidrvr
- Start date
Hi,
I guess it would depend alot on how much static pressure your vacuum produces but I am going to guess and say that at 16 ft of hose vs 16 feet of pipe there probably wouldn't be a noticable difference in airflow but there will be a difference. If you are asking about the seperation effeciency I don't think there would be any noticable difference there either. If you are hooking this up in a stationary system then smoother would be better IMO. I use 16 feet of flex hose on ours all the time for shop cleanup and haven't noticed a difference in suction/airflow.
Hope this helps,
Matt
I guess it would depend alot on how much static pressure your vacuum produces but I am going to guess and say that at 16 ft of hose vs 16 feet of pipe there probably wouldn't be a noticable difference in airflow but there will be a difference. If you are asking about the seperation effeciency I don't think there would be any noticable difference there either. If you are hooking this up in a stationary system then smoother would be better IMO. I use 16 feet of flex hose on ours all the time for shop cleanup and haven't noticed a difference in suction/airflow.
Hope this helps,
Matt
Heres the idea. My 2 sources are laid out in the shape of and "L". The table saw being at the end of the short leg of the "L" and the assembly table used for routing be at the end of long leg of the "L". The Mini is located about where the short and the long leg meet. Sonce I have to move it from one source to the other, I had an idea of plubing the system with pvc so that it could remain in one shot. I was planing on putting it by the assembly table so for that it would be fine but for the table saw it would have to travel about 25ft along one wall and then turn and go about another 10 feet down that wall.
So I guess this is what Im asking. Would this distance of 35 with PVC be too long?
So I guess this is what Im asking. Would this distance of 35 with PVC be too long?
Attachments
I use an 8' length of 2-1/2" standard hose between my Mini and 16-gallon ShopVac and then either another 8' length to my router table or mitersaw or a 10' length of 1-1/2" to my RO sander -- all work well. I have even connected the 10' smaller diameter to the 8' larger hose on the mini inlet side and it still pulls fine sawdust very well. ShopVac have high static pressure and seem to handle this well, but the Vac motor does get pretty warm if I run it too long with extra hose.
I just saw your post made 2 minutes ahead of mine -- I think you are pushing the limits here -- first, a ShopVac cannot generate enough CFM to handle the output from a tablesaw -- it is fine for vacuuming out the sawdust under your saw, but cannot capture machine generated sawdust. It can handle much of your router output if you connect the vacuum hose to the fence at the bit and use a zero clearance (or limited clearance) opening in the fence. 35 feet is going to produce too much static pressure loss, even if it is 4" diameter and necked down for your hose at each end.
Most ShopVacs are capable of about 150 cfm; your tablesaw needs a minimum of 400 cfm and will capture best at 600-800 cfm. See http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm for a thorough discussion of Dust Collection do's and don'ts.
Most ShopVacs are capable of about 150 cfm; your tablesaw needs a minimum of 400 cfm and will capture best at 600-800 cfm. See http://billpentz.com//woodworking/cyclone/index.cfm for a thorough discussion of Dust Collection do's and don'ts.
Hi again,
I agree that you need more air for a table saw than a shop vac but if you are happy with the collection that you are getting with your vac then at 35 foot of hose I think you'd be best off using the smooth wall pipe to ensure you got the most airflow you could get. I really don't know how much air you would loose at that length but using pvp pipe would give you the best results especially for the cost and having said that I would recommend the pipe anyway just because of the cost. Without going out and buying 2 lengths and testing myself I think the results would hardly be noticable. Please let us know what you end up with and your results as they will helpful to others and myself.
Matt
I agree that you need more air for a table saw than a shop vac but if you are happy with the collection that you are getting with your vac then at 35 foot of hose I think you'd be best off using the smooth wall pipe to ensure you got the most airflow you could get. I really don't know how much air you would loose at that length but using pvp pipe would give you the best results especially for the cost and having said that I would recommend the pipe anyway just because of the cost. Without going out and buying 2 lengths and testing myself I think the results would hardly be noticable. Please let us know what you end up with and your results as they will helpful to others and myself.
Matt
Random Thoughts
Random Thoughts
Stidrvr,
Once upon a time Sears sold a kit that contained a bunch of clear plastic pipe, elbows, and Tees to do essentially what you envision, hook up some tools more or less permanently to a shop vac. Apparently not an ideal solution as I haven't seen the product in a while, but it probably served the purpose for some folks.
While composing this, I did a little more research and found something very similar at Woodcraft, here. The line losses on those Tees and small diameter els must be huge! But as a shop vac emphasizes suction over airflow, not sure that's relevant.
I realize from our earlier discussion the time isn't right for you to acquire the full on, big cyclone, which would capture the finer dusts that concerns Pentz. So though Rob's point is accurate, I also understand where you're coming from right now. You just want to control the big messes, and will fix the fine dust problem as time, space, and funds permit.
Like Matt, I'm a bit concerned about the length of the runs. My gut tells me that larger pipes, to reduce suction losses, will only result in the larger chips falling out of the airflow and thus getting stuck in the pipes.
The literature indicates line losses for smooth wall pipe are half or less than hose, so that would argue for you to use pipe instead of hooking up a bunch of hoses. As you've probably found, lots of folks are selling whole house vacs, and that industry has settled on 2" pipe, which is just a tic smaller than "standard" shop vac accessories, which, though touted as 2.5", really are closer to 2.125. I haven't found adaptors, but I haven't looked real hard either. And 2.5" plumbing pipe is slightly large. If memory serves, ID is 2.375.
If you do decide to proceed down this road, I think you'll need some sort of blast gate (some are included in the Woodcraft kit, or make your own).
Also as I recall, many shop vacs draw their motor cooling air from the filtered airstream. That plus running the machine more or less constantly as you use the saw and router will mean it'll wear out faster.
Aside from those things, I also agree with Matt's point that the one sure way to find out is to give it a try. And then educate us with your results.
Regards,
DWD
Random Thoughts
Stidrvr,
Once upon a time Sears sold a kit that contained a bunch of clear plastic pipe, elbows, and Tees to do essentially what you envision, hook up some tools more or less permanently to a shop vac. Apparently not an ideal solution as I haven't seen the product in a while, but it probably served the purpose for some folks.
While composing this, I did a little more research and found something very similar at Woodcraft, here. The line losses on those Tees and small diameter els must be huge! But as a shop vac emphasizes suction over airflow, not sure that's relevant.
I realize from our earlier discussion the time isn't right for you to acquire the full on, big cyclone, which would capture the finer dusts that concerns Pentz. So though Rob's point is accurate, I also understand where you're coming from right now. You just want to control the big messes, and will fix the fine dust problem as time, space, and funds permit.
Like Matt, I'm a bit concerned about the length of the runs. My gut tells me that larger pipes, to reduce suction losses, will only result in the larger chips falling out of the airflow and thus getting stuck in the pipes.
The literature indicates line losses for smooth wall pipe are half or less than hose, so that would argue for you to use pipe instead of hooking up a bunch of hoses. As you've probably found, lots of folks are selling whole house vacs, and that industry has settled on 2" pipe, which is just a tic smaller than "standard" shop vac accessories, which, though touted as 2.5", really are closer to 2.125. I haven't found adaptors, but I haven't looked real hard either. And 2.5" plumbing pipe is slightly large. If memory serves, ID is 2.375.
If you do decide to proceed down this road, I think you'll need some sort of blast gate (some are included in the Woodcraft kit, or make your own).
Also as I recall, many shop vacs draw their motor cooling air from the filtered airstream. That plus running the machine more or less constantly as you use the saw and router will mean it'll wear out faster.
Aside from those things, I also agree with Matt's point that the one sure way to find out is to give it a try. And then educate us with your results.
Regards,
DWD
:stidrvr takes big breath:
First off. Almost 2 years ago when I found Bill Pentz site, I will be totally honest and say that I only looked at what I was interested in (mainly the design and contruction). And of that information, I skimmed through it. The rest of the information was saved for a rainy day.
With buying our house about 4 years ago there were so many projects that woodworking was so far away. I was spoiled by my dad and always having everything right there at his house. Now it was my turn. I bought my table saw made big boards into little boards, and then... back to house projects.
Now that the dust has settled on those... for now, I can get back to setting up "shop".
Going back to my comment about Pentz site. Tonight at work I started to read Pentz site, "Cover to Cover". So far the information that Ive read has made me reconsider long term ideas, and tool purchases. Like I said before I plan on the CV1400 or CV1800 but now for the 2-3 tools, plus cost factor, it would be imposible. dwdrury is spot on my only goal now is to control the mess. I am usually wearing my 3M respirator, and yes I do know the possiblities about spreading throughout the house.
When the mini is "retired" from full time duty it will, and was planed to be used as a dedicated smalll tool dust collector ie. sanding and hand routing. This idea was enforced even more from reading Pentz's site.
So now that thats out of the way.
Once again dwdrury hit the nail on the head. I thought the same thing about central house vacs. If they can run pipe throughout a house why cant I run it from one side to the other. Granted airspeed and airflow will drop but exactly how much over such a small run. Well kind of small. Not only that with going from a ribbed pipe to smooth, in all actuality, the 2 (16ft ribbed vs 30ft smooth) could cancel each other out.
dwdrury the pipe kit link you posted was not really something I thought of because this installation is only temporary. I checked prices, and with 3 10' sections a wye and a few long radius 90's will run $20.
I have contemplated getting the pvc and connecting them on the floor with all the bends and wyes to test it out to see how well it worked.
First off. Almost 2 years ago when I found Bill Pentz site, I will be totally honest and say that I only looked at what I was interested in (mainly the design and contruction). And of that information, I skimmed through it. The rest of the information was saved for a rainy day.
With buying our house about 4 years ago there were so many projects that woodworking was so far away. I was spoiled by my dad and always having everything right there at his house. Now it was my turn. I bought my table saw made big boards into little boards, and then... back to house projects.
Now that the dust has settled on those... for now, I can get back to setting up "shop".
Going back to my comment about Pentz site. Tonight at work I started to read Pentz site, "Cover to Cover". So far the information that Ive read has made me reconsider long term ideas, and tool purchases. Like I said before I plan on the CV1400 or CV1800 but now for the 2-3 tools, plus cost factor, it would be imposible. dwdrury is spot on my only goal now is to control the mess. I am usually wearing my 3M respirator, and yes I do know the possiblities about spreading throughout the house.
When the mini is "retired" from full time duty it will, and was planed to be used as a dedicated smalll tool dust collector ie. sanding and hand routing. This idea was enforced even more from reading Pentz's site.
So now that thats out of the way.
Once again dwdrury hit the nail on the head. I thought the same thing about central house vacs. If they can run pipe throughout a house why cant I run it from one side to the other. Granted airspeed and airflow will drop but exactly how much over such a small run. Well kind of small. Not only that with going from a ribbed pipe to smooth, in all actuality, the 2 (16ft ribbed vs 30ft smooth) could cancel each other out.
dwdrury the pipe kit link you posted was not really something I thought of because this installation is only temporary. I checked prices, and with 3 10' sections a wye and a few long radius 90's will run $20.
I have contemplated getting the pvc and connecting them on the floor with all the bends and wyes to test it out to see how well it worked.
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