Mini for contractor table saw

[digger]

Hi,

I am wondering is a Mini "good" enough for contractor table saw or I need something bigger? My problem is that in a single garage shop I don't have to much room for some bigger and better units.

Also, for now I have a table saw and router table, and my intention is to move a cyclone DC hose from unit to unit. I don't think there would be a problem with a router table , but with table saw. Table saw is very open under the table and have to think about how to close it and attach a hose from cyclone. Any suggestion how to do that?

Milosh

 

[dwdrury]

Table Saw

Table Saw

Digger,

The short answer to your question whether or not the Mini will help with the TS is that it depends on both your vacuum source and your expectations. Perhaps a hopefully short (I've been known to be verbose) review of my trials and mostly errors will help.

My TS is an almost 30 year old Craftsman contractor style, belt drive. My first attempt at neatness was to replace the legs with a cabinet arrangement, from Woodsmith magazine if I recall correctly. It features two sets of drawers on each side, under the wings, and a central area that has a collection area. The idea was to install a garbage bag to a frame, affix it with a large rubber band, and catch the chips that normally fell onto the floor under the saw. It did the job, but was a pain, and didn't catch anything that went out the back or snuck out around the blade guard.

Not happy with the garbage bag arrangement, I next tried cutting a small hole in the back of the cabinet, near the bottom, and attaching a large and noisy Craftsman shop vac, a circa 1983 model. The idea was to let the chips fall and suck them out of the area where the bag was with the vac, and hopefully also cut down on the amount of dust escaping out the back. That didn't work, so I covered most of the back of the saw with a removable piece of 1/8" ply, leaving just the belt area open. I could remove the ply when I needed to cut a bevel.

That lasted about a week. The shop vac simply wasn't powerful enough to move the quantity of air necessary. Vacs are set up for suction, not airflow. So I then bought a Delta 2 stage dust collector, what Pentz derides as a dust pump. It used 5" ducts and boasted 700 CFM. I left the bit of plywood covering the back, then blanked off the old garbage bag frame, cut a 5" hole in it and the back, and ran an el to facilitate hookup.

I've been running like that for about 18 years now. It works, sort of. Dust still escapes from the blade guard area, and a bit out the back by the belts. And those are the chips you can see. The fine dust, the stuff that'll ruin your lungs, well, that still goes everywhere. Plus, the Delta's final filter bag is only rated to something like 20 or 30 micron, so even if it sucks up the dust, it then just blows it back around the shop.

So now I'm installing a CV1800. And if I can find a new home for my old Craftsman saw, I've also got my eye on a cabinet saw. And a Shark Guard.

All that said, though, elsewhere I've also noted the Shopsmith dust ports, and I have one of those as well, are only 2.5", and in general modifying them for the larger ports will prove problematic. But the big dust generators, the sanding operations, probably can be. But for the most part, for other Shopsmith operations, including using the planer, I'll be using the Mini powered by a Fein vac unless and until I can figure out a better solution.

Apologies for the length, but thought it might help you decide.

Regards,

DWD

PS: As for sealing the TS, Matt recently posted some photos of his Jet TS, here Though with the recent host problems, link may not work. There are plastic pieces on the market that are intended to fit under contractor style table saws, and provide usually a 4" port. Matt did other things as well, like sealing the table to cabinet gaps with Great Stuff, and building a close out box around the back and motor.

 

[digger]

Digger,

The short answer to your question whether or not the Mini will help with the TS is that it depends on both your vacuum source and your expectations.

I agree with you DWD. Hope will find the strongest shop vac and implement it with Mini. My expectations are to reduce dust and chips around garage. When I use router table, I attach shop vac. It does job, but problem is cleaning filter, and cleaning filter, and cleaning filter... On my Delta contractor TS I have nothing but garbage bag. This is ok for chips, but not for MDF dust. So to answer to your question, I would be happy to reduce the amount of dust.

Vacs are set up for suction, not airflow.

DWD, IMHO I don't agree with you regarding that. Vac or blower, for me, are same thing. It depends where you stand when it is on. I must say, I am not an expert in that subject, but that is my point of veiw.

So I then bought a Delta 2 stage dust collector, what Pentz derides as a dust pump. It used 5" ducts and boasted 700 CFM. I left the bit of plywood covering the back, then blanked off the old garbage bag frame, cut a 5" hole in it and the back, and ran an el to facilitate hookup.

I've been running like that for about 18 years now. It works, sort of. Dust still escapes from the blade guard area, and a bit out the back by the belts. And those are the chips you can see. The fine dust, the stuff that'll ruin your lungs, well, that still goes everywhere. Plus, the Delta's final filter bag is only rated to something like 20 or 30 micron, so even if it sucks up the dust, it then just blows it back around the shop.

Thanks for that info. By reading Bill's text I realized that this fine dust is not a toy to play with. I am still debating with myself, what to do. Should I buy this Mini, which means less money less dust than I have now, or to go with some more bigger cyclone. CV1800 is big Bertha for my need. Maybe some smaller with 2-3HP motor. Should I build it or buy it? This is also a dilemma. Anyway, I will decide somehow.

My idea regarding the collecting the dust from TS is to make some sort of cover under the table, around the blade. Something like a blade guard on top of the table, but this one will have a place to attach a hose. Also, I have to think about it how to attach it to the mechanism so it will be moved also when I tilt the blade. This is all only in my mind, so I have to think about it and to build it.

DWD that for your long answer and link to Matt's photos. Interesting idea.

Milosh

 

[Matt]

Hi Digger,

What dave meant by shop vacs are set-up for suction is that most produce between 80 -150 Inches of static pressure and about 110 -150 cfm whereas a blower will only have 8 - 18 inches of static pressure and 1500 - 2000 cfm through a 6 inch pipe. So a vacuum will pull more air through a 2.5 inch pipe than a dust collector and it will only pull it's maximum of 110-150 cfm even if you put a 6 inch pipe on it. Whereas a dust collector doesn't have that suction to pull alot of cfm through a small pipe but moves 15 - 20 times as much air when connected to a 6 inch pipe.

Hope this helps,

Matt

 

[dwdrury]

Airflow, Suction, Recommendations

Airflow, Suction, Recommendations

Digger,

I see Matt beat me to it, so don't need to replow that. What he's written is correct, and that's the difference between the two terms.

Now, on to the other issues. Pentz notes that often we hobbyists spend our cash in dribs and drabs, hoping these measures will do the job. They don't, and my experience proves it, as when I was reading his site, thought he was using me as a case history, or at least the "bad example". The Delta two stage, barrel, ducting, and when that didn't keep my shop clean enough, a Delta ceiling mounted air cleaner, all told I've probably spent at least $1500, in years ago dollars. And still have a dusty shop. So don't do that. No need for you to step into the same minefield that's already cost me an arm and a leg.

What I've suggested to others, check this thread , is come up with a longer term plan, and only buy stuff that fits the plan, not what may or may not fill an immediate need. With your situation, perhaps jumping up to the large machine right now might not be the thing to do. But buying a half measure won't do the job either, and thus puts you farther away from the goal.

The idea is to go ahead and start small with the Mini, as it will remain useful irrespective of, or in addition to, a larger, more definitive solution. In other words, you won't be throwing out the Mini when and if you get a larger machine. You know you'll need the larger one when you get annoyed upon returning to your shop after a day or so and find everything coated with a layer of dust that's settled out of the air. That's the stuff you've been breathing.

What prompted me to start looking into something better than my Delta two stage was twofold. First, the filter bag is awful, and seems to spew more dust than it captures. So first thought was simply a better filter. But then I realized that the filter would immediately get clogged as the separation isn't all that good, and everything that currently goes into the bag would end up in the filters. So I thought a cyclone separator would do the job. Well, ones that looked like they might do the job were at least 2 HP, and my Delta is only 1 HP. So that meant the entire unit, blower, motor, the works, was useless. Then I found Pentz' site and realized he was correct. Which led me here.

Bottom line is my short answer in the earlier post might be most apt for your situation. The Mini is a great additon to a shop vac, and reduces or eliminates filter clogging. I also use mine when working with the Shopsmith, as those 2.5" ports aren't easily modified. Does it capture everything? No. But it does at least as good a job of it as the Delta, and with a HEPA filter in the shop vac, I also know whatever is captured doesn't just get blown past the Delta's bag and end up right back in the shop. Or in my lungs.

Regards,

DWD

 

[dwdrury]

Guard

Guard

Digger,

One more thing (as if that wasn't enough). Check out the Shark Guard, www.leestyron.com for ideas regarding the blade guard.

Regards,

DWD

 

[digger]

Hi Digger,

What dave meant by shop vacs are set-up for suction is that most produce between 80 -150 Inches of static pressure and about 110 -150 cfm whereas a blower will only have 8 - 18 inches of static pressure and 1500 - 2000 cfm through a 6 inch pipe. So a vacuum will pull more air through a 2.5 inch pipe than a dust collector and it will only pull it's maximum of 110-150 cfm even if you put a 6 inch pipe on it. Whereas a dust collector doesn't have that suction to pull alot of cfm through a small pipe but moves 15 - 20 times as much air when connected to a 6 inch pipe.

Hope this helps,

Matt

Hi Matt,

Now everything is clear. Thanks for clearing things up.

Milosh

 

[digger]

Dave,

I believe what you said. Think this is right approach to the problem. A bit of digression, when pilots learn how to fly, they don't fly immediate on some Boing. They learn on small plains. Until my shop grow bigger, I should stick with Mini.

Thanks for saving me money, frustration... I will go with Mini.

One more question. I found a guy who is selling a blower with impeller. Blower is 1/2 HP and impeller is 9" diameter. What do you think, will it work better than a shop vac?

Milosh

p.s. thanks for the link for the guard.

 

[Matt]

One more question. I found a guy who is selling a blower with impeller. Blower is 1/2 HP and impeller is 9" diameter. What do you think, will it work better than a shop vac?

Hi,

There again it will move more air through a bigger pipe and not as much as the shop vac does through a 2.5 inch line. And it's nowhere near enough to use as a full blown collector either so unless it's really cheap I wouldn't recommend it. You really need a min of 14 inch impeller and 3 hp motor but a 15 inch and 5 hp motor is well worth the extra expense in terms of airflow and life of the motor as a 5 hp motor should have bigger shaft and bigger bearings in it and unless you went with a cheap 3 hp motor there really isn't any price difference between the two.

Hope this helps,

Matt

Ps. I guess I should have asked if this was a vacuum motor or a regular blower? Does it spin at 18,000 rpm or 3450 or lower?

 

[McRabbet]

As Matt has asked at the end of his post,

I should have asked if this was a vacuum motor or a regular blower? Does it spin at 18,000 rpm or 3450 or lower?

there are blowers and impellers of all kinds. For example, a furnace blower is usually a "squirrel cage" design that provides about 1,000 - 1,500 CFM of flow, but they operate at very low static pressure and are designed to be quiet (many run at 1,725 rpm to keep the noise down). A dust collection fan has a multiple bladed impeller with flat or reverse-curved blades that generally turns in a limited clearance blower housing at 3,450 rpm. They are designed for material moving (dust and chips), can operate over 2-16 inches of water (static pressure - SP) and are usually pretty noisy. The larger impeller and SP require more power to operate. The impeller in a shop vac is usually a pair of disks anout 1/2"-3/4" apart with lots of curved vanes between the disks that connect to a high rpm motor. An opening in one disk is the inlet side and air is thrust out through the vanes -- high SP, low air volume and very noisy. No dust ever gets to the impeller or it would clog in a heartbeat. Just a little bit of the variety out there.

 

[dwdrury]

Gift Horse

Gift Horse

Milosh,

As Matt and Rob said, whether or not you buy and can make use of that motor and blower depends on its design. If it was made to move, lets say, 400 CFM at static pressure of, oh, 15 inches of water, then, no, it won't really match up very well with the Mini, as the latter is designed to work with about 100 CFM and maybe 100 inches. Thus it would be like my trying to adapt something like the Mini to the blower and motor from the Delta.

Here's a way to test. If the beast is still in its housing, check the size of the inlet. If its around 4", then this is a low pressure, higher airflow sort of blower.

If its a 2.25, 2.5" inlet, then it might work with the Mini. Ask the owner to turn it on. If, holding your hand over the inlet, you feel significant suction, like you would from a shop vac, then it probably will work with the Mini. If suction feels relatively weak, then you probably shouldn't waste your money on it.

Hope that's clear.

Regards,

DWD

 

[digger]

Hi,

There again it will move more air through a bigger pipe and not as much as the shop vac does through a 2.5 inch line. And it's nowhere near enough to use as a full blown collector either so unless it's really cheap I wouldn't recommend it. You really need a min of 14 inch impeller and 3 hp motor but a 15 inch and 5 hp motor is well worth the extra expense in terms of airflow and life of the motor as a 5 hp motor should have bigger shaft and bigger bearings in it and unless you went with a cheap 3 hp motor there really isn't any price difference between the two.

Hope this helps,

Matt

Ps. I guess I should have asked if this was a vacuum motor or a regular blower? Does it spin at 18,000 rpm or 3450 or lower?

Hi Matt,

The motor and impeller I mentioned is a blower. I have no info regarding the RPM. I guess it is 3450. But anyway, for $100 (how much is asked for) I will go with shopvac.

Thanks for clarifying.

Milosh

 

[digger]

DWD,

everything is clear. Based on photo from his add, I don't think it is some high pressure blower. Beside that, for $100 I can get more then a one used shop vac (20-30 $) and Mini is designed to be driven by a shop vac, so why should I make some "modifications" and be a 'bigger pope that a pope'. Mini is ordered and it is on a way to Canada.

BTW the HVLP spray guns are able to be run by a other side of shop vac (exit) or they need something more powerful? If I can recall, they ask for about 10 PSI.

Rob,

thanks for explanation. I haven't found anybody who is complaining about Clearvue cyclones (except the price). It means something to me, and hope I am going to be a happy customer.

As you said, there are many types of blower. Every type of blower has different application. Once, when I had a lot of fresh water fish tanks I red an article which said if you want to supply an air in every of them, you can not do that with a cage blower (from furnace) because of lack of pressure. Now, I understand physics of that.

Thanks both of you guys. Should have recalled earlier about this article.

Regards,

Milosh