Noise level CV1800

[VermontDale]

I am reposting this message since I had it on the wrong forum.


Hi Clear Vue Cyclone owners,

We have a shop is in a retirement community and are considering buying a CV1800. There are offices directly above the shop so the noise level is key.

I built a Bill Pentz cyclone in 2002, so have some understanding of the issues but I need more data. (My son is now using the cyclone.)

To get an understanding of the noise levels I would first like to get noise readings with the CV1800 cyclone installed in a corner with no enclosure. It would be most useful if the filter were mounted vertically in the standard configuration. It seems to be common to make the noise measurement about 10 feet from the system. The ceiling in our shop is about 10 feet high.

It would be interesting to hear if people have measured different noise levels depending on the particular circumstances.

I have read the thread by John Samuel on the use of insulated air conditioning tubing to further reduce noise. Analyzing that will be my next step. (In fact, I used this technique successfully upon Bill's recommendation on the Bill Pentz cyclone in my old shop.)

Thanks,

Dale

 

[VermontDale]

Answer to my own question?

Answer to my own question?

I haven't found any really solid data, but have tentatively concluded that the noise level must be about 90-92db for the standard cyclone configuration with the ductwork attached. This is based on reviewing a large number of posts. In addition, the Clear Vue technical rep quoted 75db to 90db. It looks like the higher number is for the standard system with noise abatement measures. I haven't been successful in getting clarification on the numbers from Clear Vue.

I was hoping that the noise reduction "stick" which was added to the CV1800 would give a smaller number. It is supposed to reduce the noise by about 10db.

It looks like the company is going through some major changes. I hope they survive since they clearly have a superior and unique product.

Dale

 

[Paulvia]

Dale,

I am a new Clearvue Cyclone owner and have recently completed the installation of a CV1800. The setup I have sounds almost exactly as you have described in your last post; 9 1/2 - 10' ceilings, located in a corner with no enclosure with filters mounted vertically. The room is probably about 10' x 20' and has concrete floor and walls.

Bottom line is this unit is LOUD. And I don't mean just loud but jet engine-loud. I was totally caught off guard with how loud the unit is. I even purchased a db meter to confirm what my ears were already telling me.

The db readings I am getting when standing close to the unit is 103 to 106 db. If I walk about 10' away, I am getting a consistent 96 db and, since my installation is in my house with my shop in the basement, it is a real problem for me.

Since the impeller and motor are mounted near the ceiling due to the height, it creates 2 additional problems upstairs. 1) It's too loud upstairs. 2) The hardwood floor literally vibrates above the cyclone. I have modified my installation to include some vibration reducer mounts and these have had little impact on the effect upstairs. I'm still investigating this issue to see what else I can try.

In my opinion, when you add up Clearvue's recommendation that when you turn on the unit, you leave it on for a minimum of 5-10 minutes along with the noise and vibration of the unit, I'm not sure the office folks above the cyclone in your retirement community will be happy with the installation unless you take great care to pre-build guards against these effects. With the motor and impeller mounted so close to the ceiling, it may be difficult to adequately control.

I wish that Clearvue had provided to me, before the sale, definitive recommendations on noise and vibration control because my ultimate level of customer satisfaction will be a successful installation that includes suction, noise AND vibration. So far, I have and will continue to spend significant time fixing these issues versus using my new cyclone for woodworking projects. Maybe I was too naive and did not do enough pre-sale research regarding noise and vibration. My major concern up front, was suction efficiency.

I hope this information helps.

Paul

 

[VermontDale]

Reducing noise level

Reducing noise level

Hi Paul: I built a 5hp Bill Pentz cyclone, upon which the Clear Vue is based, about 12 years ago. I had the same reaction when I fired it up with no ductwork. Connecting the ductwork reduced the noise tremendously. I also took great care not to hang the cyclone directly on the framework of the shop. I supported it on a post mounted on the floor. I built an enclosure of 3/4" MDF and exhausted outside. The resulting noise level in the shop was about 72db. I gave this system to my son who now has it in a closet with filters and exhausting inside. The noise level in the shop is about the same as mine was.

By the way, is your cyclone mounted to the concrete wall?

We have a space limitation. John Samuel's thread on this forum is very interesting. He exhausts outside, but one might be able to build an effective sound enclosure for an inside filter. So I am considering this approach now.

If we do end up building an enclosure we might use "Green Glue" between two pieces of MDF or dry wall. This is supposed to give a lot of noise reduction. But from what I have read, one must be very careful not to make a hard connection between the two layers of MDF. It is similar to the design of a speaker enclosure.

Please let us know how you make out.

Dale

 

[Paulvia]

Next steps

Next steps

Hey Dale. Thanks for the tips. I'm currently thinking about the next steps to take. Not to beat a dead horse but I do wish that I had known to go through this thought process prior to finalizing the assembly of the cyclone. Frustrating to now have to disassemble it, take it down and start over.

Just to follow up on your last notes, other than actually sealing all joints, the ductwork was all connected when I took my sound measurements. Also, yes, I do have it mounted to my concrete wall and the ceilings are around 10'.

My next steps will be to do as you suggest and build a floor mount to hold the cyclone. Then I plan on building an enclosure using acoustic foam and MDF (with consideration for motor cooling). Funny you should mention Green Glue as I have been considering giving Green Glue a chance for some time. Guess now I'll have my opportunity.

Regarding venting outside, I probably will do that only if I am not satisfied with the noise reduction from the enclosure. Venting outside physically is an option but I'm a little hesitant as I don't want to create a noise factor for the neighbors. If I vent outside, I will probably make a muffler to try and control the noise there as well.

Bottom line is if I can get the noise level to around 72db with just the enclosure I'd be doing cartwheels. I'll keep you up to date on the progress and if you have any suggestions as you move forward I would certainly appreciate hearing about them.

Paul

 

[VermontDale]

Hi Paul,

When I made the comment about putting the cyclone on a post, I didn't know you had mounted it on a concrete wall. I doubt if putting it on a post would make much difference. You should do some more research before you go to the work and expense of a post mount.

From what I have read the best way to build a closet is to use two layers of dry wall, or MDF, with Green Glue between the two layers. The inner layer should not have a hard contact with the supporting structures, otherwise the sound will be transmitted from it to the structures. I have read some descriptions of how to build enclosures using Green Glue. It seems to be similar to building speaker enclosures.

I am currently very interested in John Samuel's thread on this forum. I am thinking of following his approach but building an enclosure for the filter, since exhausting outside is not a option for us. I have more research to do before committing. Perhaps, we will end up installing the cyclone and experimenting with the best way to control noise.

We are seriously considering a Clear Vue. Let's keep the communication going so we can learn from each other.

Dale

 

[McRabbet]

Paul/Dale:

I've posted this picture before, but here is my solution for isolating any vibration from my ClearVue CV1800 from my walls -- I built a 2 x 4 and 2 x 6 support unit that sits on a concrete pad in the highest portion of the crawl space under my basement shop (my home is built on a side slope and I have almost 9 feet of clearance under that side, giving me clearance and room to run my ductwork under the floor of my shop). This same approach could be used for a unit in a closet on a concrete slab -- just be sure to leave room for bin and fiilter maintenance. Because the unit is hidden from view in my case, I developed and now market a Bin Sensor to alert me when the bin fills with dust and shavings (see the ClearVue Cyclones Website).

 

[VermontDale]

Bin Sensor

Bin Sensor

Hi Rob,

Your bin sensor looks interesting.

I do have a question. I notice in the present cyclone that when the bin becomes almost full, that dust circulates in the flexible hose. Does the efficiency of cyclone dust separation deteriorate when the dust fills into the flexible hose?

Dale

 

[Paulvia]

Thanks for posting floor support

Thanks for posting floor support

Rob,
Wanted to say thanks for posting your floor support plans. It will be a good starting point and extremely helpful. Also, saw your bin sensor on the web site. Very clever and glad it is available.

 

[McRabbet]

Here is some useful info for both of you (and other interested parties) regarding the behavior of the cyclone and the bin sensor as the bin fills. Obviously, we all know that the bin must be well sealed to avoid air coming in and reducing the efficiency of the separation in the cyclone and allowing dust to become re-entrained in the upflow to the blower and clogging the filters. In a well sealed system, gravity promotes the downward motion of particulates into the bin and the unit will work with high efficiency even as dust begins to fill the bin. The bin sensor optical sensors will continue to allow a beam to be passed through the flexible duct until they are blocked for about 15 to 20 seconds -- that is long enough to indicate the bin has filled and also to avoid nuisance blocking by a "slug" of dust. We have set the timing so the bin will be mostly filled (but not overflowing) and little dust gets re-entrained into the air to the blower. The bin sensor will (at the option of the user) automatically shut the cyclone down and trigger the strobe and (switch selectable) horn to alert the user that the bin is filled.

And I'm happy to post the cyclone support structure I am using.


Hope this helps.

 

[Don01]

Noise and then some but...

Noise and then some but...

I bought my CV in 2007. It has hung in the garage on the opposite my shop for to many years. I finally got power to it yesterday.
It was noisy but I had no ducting, no waste bin attached.
I am pretty sure most of the noise is coming from the excessive air turbulence caused by not having proper suction and discharge ducting in place.
I was pleasantly surprised that it was not significantly louder than my 2HP single stage.
I had nothing to take measurements with, but am looking forward to getting the ducting and filters connected.
Now my unit is in a separate building, so noise not as big a concern, but my single stage is the noisiest tool in my current configuration, probably because once I turn it on, I leave it running for some time.
Hope it works out for both of you.

If you go to: http://forum.canadianwoodworking.co...ting-up-a-Clearvue-(part-1)&highlight=cyclone
you can see what mreza did for his basement installation.

Don

 

[McRabbet]

Don,

Just to pass on to you and other CV owners an important word of caution not to try the start-up like you did without any duct work attached. You run a strong risk of overloading the motor as it tries to move free air and it is surprising that you did not pop your circuit breaker. Ironically, that is the heaviest load your cyclone will ever see -- when configured with a full layout of duct work and with all the blast gates are closed, it will draw much less current because it is cannot move any air.

The noise is generated by the blower impeller and will be somewhat lower after duct is added -- for these older models, a piece of wood placed in the blower above 6-8 inches from the mouth will attenuate the sound quite a bit. I have attached a drawing showing the placement of this wood done by Matt Morgano (son of the original ClearVue Cyclones owner Ed Morgano). Hope this helps.

 

[Don01]

Don,

Just to pass on to you and other CV owners an important word of caution not to try the start-up like you did without any duct work attached. You run a strong risk of overloading the motor as it tries to move free air and it is surprising that you did not pop your circuit breaker. Ironically, that is the heaviest load your cyclone will ever see -- when configured with a full layout of duct work and with all the blast gates are closed, it will draw much less current because it is cannot move any air.

I was very much aware of this. The electrician who did most of the wiring for me is an industrial guy. He was interested in seeing if the overloads, either on the motor, at the starter or at the breaker would trip. None did. I will clamp on an ammeter tomorrow and see what the readings are.
My primary suction is not connected, but is very close to the wall it is going through ie only a few inches clearance, so perhaps the full load was not encountered. The waste bin is not connect so you would think the additional leakage at this point would have made up for any inlet restriction.

The noise is generated by the blower impeller and will be somewhat lower after duct is added -- for these older models, a piece of wood placed in the blower above 6-8 inches from the mouth will attenuate the sound quite a bit. I have attached a drawing showing the placement of this wood done by Matt Morgano (son of the original ClearVue Cyclones owner Ed Morgano). Hope this helps.

I installed this stick when I read about it. Unfortunately, i have no before and after observation.

Don

 

[VermontDale]

Horn on bin sensor

Horn on bin sensor

Hi Robert,

We have installed the bin sensor and it seems to be working.

We like the feature which stops the cyclone when the bin is full. However, we have over 30 certified users and the chances of someone forgetting to turn off the main power switch of the cyclone before cleaning out the bin are high. It would be great if it would turn off the power switch. Do you have some suggestion of how that might be done? We have a three phase motor with a special relay for the motor.

We would like to experiment with using the horn. However, it is not clear to us how to activate it. The directions are a little vague.

Can you direct me to web site which gives more detail?

Thanks,

Dale

 

[McRabbet]

Hi Dale,

It is good to hear that you're pleased with the bin sensor for your cyclone. Let me address your second question first -- the horn. On your model, the Red button on the front of the Bin Sensor Control Box is a 2-position On/Off switch that I ship in the Off position. It works in conjunction with the strobe, so if you push the button once to the On position, it will sound with the strobe when an alarm condition (bin full) condition occurs. If the user wants to silence the horn, another push sets it back to Off and the strobe continues until the sensors no longer detect a full bin. I now ship units with a toggle switch in that position so users have a clearer indication of the On vs Off position.

Your other question relates to an operational issue once the bin is filled -- you suggest "It would be great if it would turn off the power switch." -- I suspect you mean the Cyclone Power Switch. Since it sounds like you have implemented the interconnection to the Electric Box contactor to make the cyclone shut down when the bin fills and the alarm flashes, that feature does the key function of interrupting the power to the Cyclone. Since I don't know your exact configuration (remote control or wall switch) and the specific 3-phase contactor wiring to the bin sensor, I can't answer completely here without further details from you (you are welcome to email me at the address supplied with the bin sensor so diagrams or photos could be provided; very few users have 3-phase power, so that adds to the complexity).

As you know, I recommend the operational sequence in the Installation Guide that upon a bin full alarm, the user should power down the cyclone power and then the bin sensor power switch before servicing the bin. The electronics I have used work well to inform the user of filled bins and keep the cost low. As you know, if the user turns the power switch on the bin sensor off in that condition, the cyclone will re-start. Your concern is that since the cyclone is already powered down, an automatic power disconnect would make it more fool-proof. While it is possible to add a "power latch" feature to turn the Cyclone power off, it would add considerably to the cost and restart procedure -- I'd suggest that you try to add a clear sign at the bin sensor to inform your users of the correct sequence to make this easier for them to know and certainly cheaper.

Hope this helps.