Venting outside and ducting - I am brand new to dust collection

McRabbet

Senior Forum Member
I've used this style of clamp for many years without any issues -- they bridge the wire coil in flexible duct hose very well and hold firmly. Plus, they are inexpensive. Here is the LINK. They are also available in other sizes, like four inch.
 

egbell

New member
Thanks Rob:

That is a perfect answer. I saw those but did not know how they would work. This weekend I'm going to try to attach my radial saw.. I have to build the dust collection system for it first, and if I get it done, I know I still could not get them that fast, so these won't help for that but I am going to be doing a lot of connection work and this is just the information I needed!
 

egbell

New member
Good afternoon:

I'm making progress but it is slow now. I am working on the collection for my radial saw. I ordered a FastCap saw hood for my mitre saw. It seems like a very good solution to integrate with my CV. I found a tool that I thought might be of interest, though you probably already all know about this. Just in case, it is a min-bolt cutter. It is just about the size of lineman's pliers but the leverage is better and it cuts through the hose wire pretty easily. I cannot imagine having to do a bunch of cuts and not having something like this. I got mine at True Value hardware. It is Master Mechanic brand and was about $13. I saw them cheaper on the Internet... as low as $8, but I was there and so was it.
http://www.truevalue.com/product/Mini-Bolt-Cable-Cutter-8-In/83332.uts.

Have any of you seen the video of the guy who has the CNC machine that probably costs more than my house.. making his own plywood duct work? That machine is incredible and I have to believe there is a lot more going on than what he shows in his video, but it is cool.
 

Rushton

New member
Hi Ed, seems like you've made good progress while I was away. Congratulations!

Thanks for the tip on the mini bolt cutters. Sounds like a nice solution.

I assume the YT video you're referring to is Frank Howarth's video on his making the ducts for his radial arm saws. Frank makes available some interesting content. One thing that has always concerned me about his design, however, is the increased resistance of the square corners of rectangular ducts vs round ducts. You have to increase the size to overcome the loss due to that additional resistance. See Bill Pentz's comments at http://billpentz.com/woodworking/cyclone/ducting.cfm Item #3. The CNC machine is sure cool to watch in operation, though!
 

egbell

New member
Welcome back Rushton:

That is exactly to whom I was referring about the duct work. I suppose moisture is not an issue for him because of regular airflow though I don't know about the outsides. The thing that just keeps in my mind when I view his videos is how much that machine had to cost, but it IS cool. Is there more resistance on square corners, or do you mean where it joins hose?

I am making glacial progress on my radial saw. I made an attachment to catch the saw dust. I'm now closing the gaps in my duct work. I hope to have it linked by this weekend. If so, then I will get about figuring out how to integrate my ductwork into that fastcap. I am spending SO much time browsing videos.
 

Rushton

New member
Is there more resistance on square corners, or do you mean where it joins hose?

My understanding is that the increased resistance comes from along the length of the duct due to is being rectangular in cross section rather than round.

I am making glacial progress on my radial saw. I made an attachment to catch the saw dust.

What did you decide to do for your radial arm saw? Fastcap or something else? Resolving a dust hood for the RAS will also be my biggest challenge, particularly since I use my RAS for ripping and for angle and miter cuts, not just perpendicular cuts.

Yesterday I completed construction of my manometer and have it attached to my filters dust collection box. Today I've been working on my dust bin collection lid and making the inset cutouts for the acrylic viewing ports and LED lighting following jsbrow's suggestions. I was shocked by how little height I have between the dust bin lid and the bottom of the cyclone - just like you described. I may have another 1" but it is tight, tight, tight.
 

egbell

New member
Good morning:

What did you decide to do for your radial arm saw? Fastcap or something else?

I made a box that sits on the back of the base of the RAS. It has a 45 degree plane in which I mounted a 6 inch piece of pipe. That will attach to a very short piece of flex hose. From the fence to my box, I made a box that is just a bit lower than the RAS motor. I made a top and drilled it for a fitting to attach the fitting from the saw guard but like a putz, I measured it with the blade raised. When I put it in place and lowered the blade, it hit my box.. so I had to go back and cut that down. I'll redrill it and attach the hose again. I have watched when I cut and a LOT of dust spits out of the blade guard fitting, though I know many on YouTube just tape that shut. I'm open to that too. I have not connected the cyclone to this yet, but I have a high confidence it is going to work because of all of the similar designs (on which it was based) on YouTube. I started out toying with dadoes etc, but lost patience with those quickly. I may need some modifications but most of what I do with my radial saw is dadoes, though I use a standard blade to do them and just do multiple cuts. Takes more passes but my dado is a wobble type and would allow much less height on the pieces I cut. I will try to get a picture posted here.

My lid is too tight to fight with. I'm afraid something will give with removal/replacement. It is WAY more work than I am willing to do. I am going to cut my barrel, but I'm going to cut it at the bottom. I have a small low-offset circular saw and I'm going to make a jig to hold it that will sit on the floor. Then (I hope) I will just slide that saw around the barrel with the floor serving as my fence. The alternative is the table saw, but the floor seems a better option. Then I will go back and firm up my top with window and light. We have some small battery operated lights that turn on by pressing the dome. I am hoping I can make use of them for the lighting.

I am opting to cut my barrel bottom to keep the top intact with the clamp ring, etc. With a decent cut, I won't have to do anything special to permanently mount the bottom I'll have to make. Glue and screws but not aluminum strip, etc. I do have to make a circle cutting jig for my router. Has anyone done that... any recommendations? Or did those who did this use some other method, or a commercial jig?
 

Rushton

New member
I made a box that sits on the back of the base of the RAS. It has a 45 degree plane in which I mounted a 6 inch piece of pipe. That will attach to a very short piece of flex hose. From the fence to my box, I made a box that is just a bit lower than the RAS motor...

Thanks for this description. I can pretty much envision what you've done, but a picture would be very helpful! I'll be interested in your report on how well it's working once you connect it to your cyclone. Since I also rip with my RAS, I'll be adding a 4" hose connection to the blade guard outlet that will be connected to a blast gate so I can connect the hose when ripping. For straight cuts, I plan to put a cap on that outlet.

I do have to make a circle cutting jig for my router. Has anyone done that... any recommendations? Or did those who did this use some other method, or a commercial jig?

I made a circle cutting jig like Jimmy Diresta's jig, for cutting my 23" diameter groove in the underside of my lid to capture the lip of the barrel. Worked well. Sometime I'll make another that has a sliding pin point like some other YouTubers have shown. But I like Diresta's approach to rotating the large work piece under the stationary router.
 

Rushton

New member

jsbrow

New member
egbell,

Plugging the Radial Arm Saw’s dust port. I believe that pulling dust thrust toward the rear of the radial arm saw AND pulling air from the guard dust port is more effective than plugging the guard mounted dust port and relying only on the dust pickup on the rear of the saw. I plan to begin pulling air from the guard mounted dust port and the dust pickup installed at the rear of my saw. Here is the basis for my opinion…

I cobbled together a dust pickup for my radial arm saw. It has been in use for about 2 years. I also plugged the dust port on the saw’s guard. The dust pickup did a fair job of collecting dust. Some saw dust escaped and after several cuts the table had to be vacuumed to remove the saw dust that escaped.

Recently I attached a Dust Cobra dust extractor to the radial arm saw’s dust port (on the guard). I wanted some empirical evidence before permanently modifying the CV 1800 dust pick that shows that sucking dust from the radial saw’s guard mounted dust port would make a difference. Both the CV1800 and the Dust Cobra were used at the same time, both sucking air during some test cuts.

I found that with the CV1800 pulling air from the dust pickup as well as the Dust Cobra sucking dust from the guard mounted dust port made a big difference. Almost no dust escapes. This experiment is enough to convince me to modify the radial saw dust pickup by adding a short length of hose to the guard mounted dust port powered by suction from the CV1800. I am pondering where to tap into the previously made CV1800 connected dust pick for maximum effectiveness.

Cutting the barrel. I strongly recommend against the table saw for cutting the fiber drum to size. It strikes me as too difficult to maintain control of the drum during the cut. My fear is the fiber drum could be damaged or an accident could result.

I suppose it could be cut using a handheld trim circular saw, but with that method it may also be difficult to achieve a straight cut. It could also result in an accident, so if used, please exercise great care.

I found that the jig saw was a good tool for cutting the fiber drum to size. I made an entry hole on the waste side of a cut line penciled in with a black Sharpie. I was fairly easy to hold the jig saw on the cut line and simultaneously control the drum. The fiber drum is thin enough and soft enough to allow very good control with the jig saw.

Router Trammel. There are a number of designs for a router trammel. But for adjustability and diameter accuracy, a trammel that connects to the router using the holes on the router base may be the most flexible design. The holes in the router base on my router accept a pair of steel bars connected to a fence that mounts to the router. A pair of steel rods that fit the router could be anchored to a block of wood secured to the trammel arm so that when the router is connected to the trammel, the center of the straight router bit is in line with the pivot pin on the trammel. The router can be slid on the rods to dial-in the exact radius.

Whatever trammel design you chose, ensure that the measured diameter of the drum is the inside diameter; assuming the bottom will be installed inside the drum. I mention this because it is a mistake I would be likely make.
 

jsbrow

New member
Rushton,

Nicely executed; a very clean install! I am sure you will appreciate the utility of the lighted viewport long after the aggravation of incorporating it has faded.
 

egbell

New member
Good morning:

Jsbrow: I connected my radial saw last night to the dust collector and taped the blade guard port shut. It worked well but I had planned on running the hose. I have a nice flexible one from Rockler and the fittings. When I had to cut my jig down, I lost the hole, but that was a plus in the end because I want to reorient it anyway. I had placed it facing up and the hose had to bend a lot. I'm going to rotate it 90 degrees. It was a great feeling though to see that dust snaking down through the cyclone.

I am quite ambivalent about cutting the barrel on the table saw. My scheme would have me just moving a trim saw attached to a stand of some kind around the barrel. The floor will be my fence. I fear using a jig saw because I don't want a rough line, though what you say is making me at least consider it. I could use the same floor fence jig scheme to attach a sharpie and scribe the line for cutting.

Rushton: I took a picture last night and my camera screen went black and I could not even turn the camera off. I gave it to my wife. She recharged it (I did not know to do that) and it works so I took 3 pictures today which I'm including, of what I did. My design is not quite done. I planned on making some kind of grid/baffle facing the cut. There is a tremendous amount of suction and it pulled a couple small pieces I was doing (just for sample) right into the dust collector. Which is still way cool! Your top is excellent and I love the use of the LED strips. I have been eyeing them for lighting for quite some time. The link to a circle cutter is excellent. I have been obsessing about getting a bushing, etc. This is exactly what I'm going to do. Thanks for this because it is probably not one I would have found on my own.

It took me a little bit to figure out how to get these uploaded and then to make them small. I believe you can make them larger by double-clicking on them but I won't know that until I post this and check. The offset in the first picture is to allow the saw head to retract all the way. The taped exhaust elbow will be attached to a hose that goes into the top of the dust box. The opening on the front I need to baffle to keep little pieces from getting sucked up in, though I may think on that. I use my miter saw to cut small pieces. The chute sits just a titch back from the fence edge. It is my intention to integrate a fence in the future and I initially considered putting it into a recess. I can always cut it farther back if I want. The flange in the back is flush with the bottom of the box. Probably not necessary but why not. And as you can see, there is hardly any clearance at all between the saw motor and the chute. I don't as a rule cut miters on my radial saw now that I have my miter saw, and I never rip on it. I do that stuff on my panel cutting jig or my table saw.

I hope to have that saw hood today. If so I can get on the miter saw next. That is going to be a chore figuring how to integrate my duct work to that.

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Rushton

New member
Thanks for the compliments on my iteration of the dust bin lid viewing window, jsbrow and egbell. It was jsbrow's gallery photos that convinced me to do something similar in my setup.

Ed, thanks for the photos of your RAS dust hood. I very much like the captured-blade through-the-fence dust shoot and will do something very similar. I'm likely to make my shroud modular so I can have both a standard 90-degree dust shoot but be able to swap it out or somehow change it up for angled cuts. Since my duct will be coming from up above, I will most likely add a 6-6-4 wye above the saw to tap in a 4" flex duct to connect to the saw guard.

LED Lighting. I plan to add LED lighting to the underside of my RAS's arm as Brian Weekley has done. It makes some nice additional lighting onto the table - not perfect, but nice.
See: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6YC3EUyZK4E
 

egbell

New member
Good afternoon:

Rushton: As you know, the idea for the RAS was not mine.. just my take on it. However, since you are going to use the 6 x 4 x 4 Wye, I have to ask another question. I had done research and saw a recommendation for Grizzly's in this thread. I had seen it on Grizzly too and the price was right so I bought 3. I anticipate one pair of 4 inch hoses for my table saw, one for my planer, and one for my mitre saw... anyway, I got them yesterday. Not ready to use them yet, but I had expected them to fit into a 6 inch joint, or for 6 inch pipe to fit into them. Neither is true. The end is chamfered and there is no easy way I can see to use them. Do you know if the expectation for these is to have them on the end of hose? I don't see at present, short of some kind of kludge, of using these. I'm leaning toward heating a piece of pipe and forcing the 6 inch end into this. I only have 3, so it is just a little heartburn, but is there something I don't know for these? My table saw is the tool I am most anxious to use these with. I'm going to make a blade cover for the top. I learned on another project that I can heat and bend acrylic and it works very nicely, and I have a number of examples for a cantilevered device for the top blade collector... I did not anticipate difficulty using these Wyes.

I was thinking at first you were looking at a different idea for lighting under an RAS arm.. .well, in it actually. The guy was clever but my did he work hard. He took the thing a apart, cut apart a small light bulb to get the LED element, wired it right into his switch, etc. It was extreme. I'll be interested to hear how your approach works out. If I do it, I'm just going to use my little battery powered.. at least I'll give it a try, but it is not on my radar just yet. Where did you get your strip lights? I did some research on those. I found some places you could get decent size rolls but I never got beyond the research. I like what you did with them on the barrel top. Do you need some kind of transformer for those?
 

Rushton

New member
Ed, I don't have any ideas about the Grizzly wyes. I wonder if it is sized for Schedule 40 pipe rather than S&D pipe? What I've learned through this process is that 4" is not 4" and 6" is not 6" - you really have to be specific about the specification standard (Schedule 40 versus ASTM D2729) to which the fitting is supposed to fit. And then there are manufacturer to manufacturer variances and differing wall thicknesses (2729 vs SDR35). Ack! It's enough to drive one to distraction. I purchased Clear Vue's 6" to double 4" fittings when I ordered my cyclone and will be using those for the bandsaw and drill press.

LED Lighting. What you describe is why I liked Brian Weekley's approach using ready-made parts. The lights are powered via a separate switch from the AC/DC adapter so you can have lighting on the table even with the saw not running. I purchased my reel of LED strip lighting parts through Amazon, here are the links to what I ordered:

Reel of 2835 LED Strip lights, warm white (I selected warm white color balance, but one could alternatively get bright white)
AC/DC Adapter with in line switch (also includes a female plug connector to which you can attach your light strip)

As Brian showed in his video, I cut the LED strip to the length I wanted, then soldered some 20 gauge wire to the copper tabs, then connected the wire to the female plug connector that was included with the AC/DC adapter. Done.

One thing to watch for is keeping the polarity correct from the tabs of the LED strip to the power. If the strip doesn't light up, it's most likely that the +/- connect points have been reversed.
 
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egbell

New member
Thanks for the LED links Rushton. Are you wiring all of what you are doing to the same transformer somehow? That was one of the things that backed me away from them a little... they are extremely flexible and low profile for use, but they need a transformer, or did I misunderstand things about them? I do still see a use for them in the future and you are presenting even more possibilities.

As for the Wyes, I am trying to minimize costs where I can. This system has not been the only expense I have taken on during this project. I bought one of those tilt tables from Rockler, for instance. I have several small bell-ends of the pipe I used for my duct work. I am hoping I can take my heat gun to those and expand them just enough to accept the Wye. This IS one of those situations I try to avoid by accepting higher cost. When I don't follow my principle, I do often have heartburn.

I finish at noon on Fridays. I made a floor sweep on Monday. Today I'm going to extend the drop that will terminate in the floor sweep. There are two more Wyes in that drop. That is my goal for this weekend, to get that all put together. If the hood comes in today, that will be another thing on the list.

I have been thinking about what you are facing with collecting dust from ripping on the radial saw. I first thought of some kind of downdraft approach, but even if that were practical, you would be pushing material across a surface that would be fighting you (unless you had a roller in your table somehow), though I always had a trough in my table where the blade could sit just below the surface of the table, so that might mitigate. I am really interested in the solution you come up with because I used to use my radial saw for everything (ripping, pin routing, shaping, etc.) so I know how many things you have to account for, and I know that for ripping you have to rotate the saw guard.
 

Rushton

New member
Ed, for the LED wiring one does need a small transformer (AC/DC adapter). For a short length of LED strip lighting (up to about 24"), you only need an output of 5 volts or so; more is not a problem as they will only draw what they need. The AC/DC adapter for a cell phone charger is the size of what we're talking about, but wired with a barrel connector rather than a USB connector. And they are cheap - about $6-10. The one I gave you a link for includes the inline switch plus a female barrel connector and it's still only $9.99. I plan to use a separate adapter for each set of lighting rather than pull wire to a single power adapter - just make life simpler.

I'll share whatever design dust shroud I make for the RAS to encompass ripping. It may be a couple of months yet. I'm also setting up my workshop in the basement along with installing the cyclone, so I'm working on multiple projects getting this space available to use. The cyclone is the priority, then the RAS to at least a point where I can work with it using a temporary jerry-rigged dust shroud, then refurbishing another RAS to give to my son-in-law along with a rolling cabinet/stand for his saw. Once that's done, I'll be able to return to upgrading the dust shroud design for my saw into a more final design. In between is all the usual shop clear out and set up one needs to do to convert a space for woodworking.

As for the Wyes, I am trying to minimize costs where I can.

I understand this desire! The Grizzly wyes are surprisingly inexpensive. I look forward to your report on whether you were able to get them to work for you.
 
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egbell

New member
Good afternoon:

I was able to get the Wyes in pretty easily. It took just a very little bit of heat on the bell-ends. I had 3 left over.

Stretching that hose is NO FUN even with heat. The mini-bolt cutters have been good. The wire in the hose I bought is pretty hard, but it does cut them.

I ran the last drop down to my floor sweep and hooked it in too... swept the floor and it works great.

I ran out of foil tape... I'll get some tonight or tomorrow for the last duct work I have. One thing I see right now.... It looks like I'm going to have a LOT of 6 inch hose when all is said and done. I used a piece about 2 inches for a joint to get one drop vertical... needed just a little bit of flex and that did the trick. The only other piece I have used is the one in my RAS picture.

I will cut my barrel this weekend if I can get that bottom created, and that trick you showed me (Rushton) is really going to do the trick.

I'm going to have to get some 4 inch hose pretty soon. I will be using that at least on my table saw and planer/router and jointer. Saw hood has still not come in. Figured it would be here today for sure. I had given thought to getting one for my RAS too, but I decided against it... I don't think it would help you at all with ripping though maybe you could make some kind of 'tent' to drop over the arm of your saw that incorporates something for the hose.
 

Rushton

New member
Saw hood has still not come in. Figured it would be here today for sure. I had given thought to getting one for my RAS too, but I decided against it... I don't think it would help you at all with ripping though maybe you could make some kind of 'tent' to drop over the arm of your saw that incorporates something for the hose.

For ripping, I plan to start simply by putting a 4" flex hose over the dust nozzle on the blade guard to pull away what automatically ejects from there. That should at least get most of the chips. I am thinking of some type of hood/skirt that could surround the blade guard when ripping - perhaps something similar to what is used to surround the cutter head of a CNC machine. A video from the former owner Clear Vue showed a 4" hose mounted into the side of his RAS dust guard and the standard 1 1/2' opening closed off. This would certainly provide much greater air flow around the blade.

Picked up a 20' length of good quality 4" flex hose today off of Craigslist (for just $20 !!) and will use that for my floor sweeping duties. I don't like to broom sweep the floor because that just throws dust in the air - I prefer to vacuum the floor. The 20' of flex hose from a centrally located drop should allow me to reach quite a bit of my main working area and I'll set it up with a floor wand so I can push it around just like my shop vac.
 

egbell

New member
Hi Rushton:

I have seen others make the same point about raising dust by sweeping. I can see the point. I am going with a floor sweep though because I don't want to deal with the hose. It would probably work well in my shop because my shop is pretty small, but even the 12 foot hose I deal with on my shop vac is a pain. I had bought an air filter (WEN... about $115 or so) that I use when doing things that raise dust in my shop. Judging by the filter, it works pretty well. It is on my bench right now because I needed it out of the way for my duct work, but I just turn on the cyclone with a blast gate open now. I started this thread because I wanted to vent outside and people told me that is a bad idea because of a need to refresh the air pulled out and I live in the north east and don't want to keep a door open.. and Cathy told me there is an extremely high rate of exchange of air when the cyclone is running, so I figure it is cleaning the air pretty quickly. At least that is what I tell myself.. and I will be putting the air filter back up when I get a little farther along with the dust collection at the machines.

I saw two videos yesterday from guys with the same table saw as me and I got motivated. I have a 10 inch Ridgid contractor's table saw and it is HEAVY. I have been putting off doing a chute to link in but the one guy did it by removing the saw from the stand. I figured I could lift it just onto my bench but it was too heavy for me. The other guy just built his in place but his video showed he had a lot of fits and starts, etc. because of that approach, and I liked the first guy's approach better. Everything right there and unobstructed. But there was that weight thing, and I figured out how to do it and I'm kind of pleased with myself and so I took a couple of pictures. I'm sharing them only because my approach might appeal to someone else too. I hope to have this done this week... and then I'm going to need some 4 inch hose too. This will put me WAY ahead of where I figured I would be with my tools.

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