Wiring needed

J

JulieR

New member
Hi
I am interested in buying the 1800 unit. My husband is currently wiring our brand new shop and has asked me to find out what wire I need for my cyclone. Could someone please explain the type of breaker (I believe 30amp double pole), the type of wire (I believe 10/2) and how is it turned on and off, someone has mentioned a separate on/off switch, so what is that, and how is it wired into the machine?

Thanks,
Julie R
 
Download the installation instructions on the ClearVue Home page .. .. it tells you exactly what you need to know to properly answer your question.

I always pull 10-3 w/ground or bigger, depending on length & load .. that gives you the ability to pull a 110 leg for control voltage, which you will want to do if you plan to use a cheap remote control for your ClearVue. The one they supply is actually intended for Christmas tree lights, and it works just great when installed per their instructions.

If in doubt .. call and talk to the owner(Ed). He is always available to discuss his product, and you just can't get better customer service than that !! !! !!
 
Bob's instructions are fine. I actually used 10/2 with ground as I had run a separate 110 line that is close. If you want to use a remote, it will run the 110 volt trigger on the relay. The wire from the breaker (the 30 amp double pole is what I used) goes to one side of the relay, then some 10/2 with ground extension cord material (SP or SPL I think) from the relay to the motor. Wire the motor per it's directions, also on Ed's site. I don't use a remote. Instead in my small shop I wired a light switch to run the relay. Exactly the same wiring as a light, but the trigger leads of the relay become the "lamps" wiring. You need a pretty good size box for the relay, say 8X8X6. Be sure to wire your motor before mounting it. I had to stand on a ladder as the motor is up in the rafters about 6" from the ceiling to wire it up. Not fun.
It is no different than wiring an electrical outlet. Just be sure all the wires on the motor, and they are labled on the wiring, are there. I found one wire under the motor's electrical box, grounded to the motor chassis, luckliy before I tried to power it up! Make sure they are all accounted for.
And if you have further questions, don't hesitate to ask us. There are a lot of good DIY people here, and Ed and Matt are always ready to help. No finer company to buy a cyclone from!! Jim.
 
JulieR said:
I am interested in buying the 1800 unit. My husband is currently wiring our brand new shop and has asked me to find out what wire I need for my cyclone. Could someone please explain the type of breaker (I believe 30amp double pole), the type of wire (I believe 10/2) . . .
Click to expand...

Actually, the National Electric Code may require #8 copper wire, depending on the wiring method. The sizing of motor circuits (Article 430 of the NEC) is different than most other circuits. Here is a quick run down:

The wire to the motor (the branch circuit) is sized according to a current value looked up in a table, not according to the nameplate current value. For a 5 HP 240V motor, that current value is 28 amps. The required ampacity (current carrying ability) of the branch circuit is then 125% of that value, which is 35 amps.

To determine what size wire to use, you need to check an ampacity table based on the wiring method. If you are using Romex (NM Cable, 60 degree column), then the ampacity of #10 Cu is only 30 amps, so you have to use #8 Cu, which has an ampacity of 40 amps. If you are runnning conduit to the motor and pulling individual conductors (eg THHN, 75 degree column), then the ampacity of #10 Cu is 35 amps and #10 Cu is OK.

Lastly, as to breaker size, it is important to understand that for a motor circuit, the breaker does not protect the motor. The motor is protected by the motor overload, which for the Leeson motor sold here is an integral thermal protector on the motor. So the job of the breaker is just to deal with short circuits and ground faults. With that in mind, the NEC allows a normal breaker (an inverse time breaker) to be sized up to 250% of the tabular current value for the motor. In our case, that is 28 amps * 250% = 70 amps.

One of the reasons this is so high is that the motor starting current is much higher than the normal full load current, and if you size the breaker too low, you will get nuisance trips on starting. However, there is nothing wrong with using a smaller breaker if it works without nuisance trips. Since people here have reported using a 30 amp breaker without problems, I would start with that and only upsize if necessary.

Hope that helps. It is surprising to note that wiring the motor used here with #10 Romex is an NEC violation.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Wayne,
Basically I agree with what you said. However, lets look at the two things the NEC is covering: 1. Function and 2. Safety. From a functional standpoint we have used a 30 amp circuit with # 10 wire in about 1500 installations - without problem. I have had no reports of a 30 amp breaker kicking out on startup. Now to the second and much more important part of what you said which pertains to safety: "So the job of the breaker is just to deal with short circuits and ground faults. With that in mind, the NEC allows a normal breaker (an inverse time breaker) to be sized up to 250% of the tabular current value for the motor. In our case, that is 28 amps * 250% = 70 amps." I couldn't disagree more strongly. You stated that the job of the breaker is just to deal with short circuits and ground faults. This is absoutely wrong. The primary job of a circuit breaker is to deal with an overload condition and to protect the wire from overheating, melting and causing a fire. That is the FIRST job of a circuit breaker. So, if one was to install a 70 amp breaker on #8 wire one has created an immediate danger of overloading the wire without tripping the breaker. I don't care what ANY book says, all of my training and experience says you don't put a penny behind a fuse and you don't install a larger breaker than what the wire can handle. Of course I'm open to further discussion on this topic because I'm always interested in learning new things. I just don't want this forum to be the cause of someone burning their house down.

Ed
 
Ed said:
Basically I agree with what you said. However, lets look at the two things the NEC is covering: 1. Function and 2. Safety. From a functional standpoint we have used a 30 amp circuit with # 10 wire in about 1500 installations - without problem. I have had no reports of a 30 amp breaker kicking out on startup.
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I agree that a #10 wire with a 30 amp circuit breaker is likely to be functional. If the #10 wire is 10/2 Romex (NM cable), however, it is not NEC compliant.

Ed said:
Now to the second and much more important part of what you said which pertains to safety: "So the job of the breaker is just to deal with short circuits and ground faults. With that in mind, the NEC allows a normal breaker (an inverse time breaker) to be sized up to 250% of the tabular current value for the motor. In our case, that is 28 amps * 250% = 70 amps." I couldn't disagree more strongly. You stated that the job of the breaker is just to deal with short circuits and ground faults. This is absoutely wrong. The primary job of a circuit breaker is to deal with an overload condition and to protect the wire from overheating, melting and causing a fire. That is the FIRST job of a circuit breaker.
Click to expand...
You are absolutely correct that every branch circuit needs to be protected from overload, short circuit and ground fault, and that for most branch circuits, the circuit breaker provides all three functions.

Motor circuits, however, are different. If you read Article 430 of the NEC (see, for example, the California Electrical Code, which is almost identical, at http://resource.org/bsc.ca.gov/index.html), you will see that a motor circuit requires, after the circuit breaker, separate motor overload protection. For many motors, such as the one you use, this is built into the motor in the form of a thermal protector. The motor overload protection also provides overload protection for the branch circuit. Therefore, in motor circuits only, the circuit breaker does not have to provide overload protection.

The upshot is that for a motor circuit, the circuit breaker may be safely sized larger than the ampacity of the branch circuit, up to the limits previously discussed. The only practical constraint is that the circuit breaker not trip on startup. So it is OK to use the smallest circuit breaker that doesn't trip.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Wayne,
Thanks for the clarification about the branch circuit. I understand the overload protecting the wire in that situation so all's well. However, as the NEC is mainly concerned with industrial situations where electricians are handling the wiring I can see no real problems. In the hobbyist world that we work in there are other concerns. I wouldn't think too much about running the dust collector and at least one other machine off of a 70 amp circuit. ( I know better but most hobbyist woodworkers aren't electricians.) So, if I decided to do some additions to my shop and found a 70 amp breaker in my electrical pannel I might erroneously conclude that I had plenty of power to add a saw or a 20 amp 5 hp planer to the circuit, or a welder or a sub pannel. In that situation the breaker wouldn't be protecting the wire. My rule is that the breaker HAS to protect the wire - no matter what's on the other end of the wire.

Regards,

Ed
 
Ed,

My point in jumping into this thread was to point out where the NEC requirements for wiring the motor on your dust collector are stricter than you might think (no 10/2 Romex for the motor circuit) and where they are laxer than you might think (you can use up to a 70 amp breaker on your motor circuit).

The NEC is a minimum standard, so we are all welcome to perform our installs to a higher standard. I totally agree that since it seems no one has nuisance trips with a 30 amp breaker, then it is a good idea to use a 30 amp breaker.

However, the other point I think is a very important one--using 10/2 Romex for this motor is an NEC violation. As someone selling a product, I would expect you don't want to advise your customers to violate the NEC. So if someone asks you what size breaker and wire to use, a NEC compliant response would be: use a 30 amp breaker; if you are using a 60 degree wiring method (such as Romex), use #8 copper; if you are using a 75 degree wiring method (such as THHN in conduit), you can use #10 copper.

A few comments on your other points:

There is nothing wrong with running multiple motors on a single branch circuit. Since each motor has its own overload protection, you can size the branch circuit for all the motors together--the rule is 125% of the largest tabular current value plus 100% of all the other tabular current values.

My attitude is that if someone is going to DIY, especially with electricity, then they need to inform themselves about the job at hand at least as well as a professional. If not, they shouldn't do the job. Most homes will have one circuit which does not obey the "usual" rules on breaker size, namely the air conditioning circuit. So the special rules for motor circuits and motor driven appliances are definitely worth being aware of.

Cheers,
Wayne
 
Wayne,
You jumped to something else and lost me. Is there something wrong with using Romex 10-2/w ground?

Ed
 
Sorry, I think I asked that question wrong. What I meant is: Do you think there is a safety issue with using 10-2 wire for our installation? If so, what would be the issue?

Ed
 
Ed said:
Sorry, I think I asked that question wrong. What I meant is: Do you think there is a safety issue with using 10-2 wire for our installation? If so, what would be the issue?
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Well, that is difficult for me to say, as I am no motor expert. What I can say is that the writers of the NEC felt that the proper tradeoff between safety and economics for a 5 HP 240V motor was to disallow 10/2 NM cable and require either 8/2 NM cable or #10 copper conductors in conduit. I'm not going to second guess their judgement and say it is too conservative. I would also think that if you advise your customers to use 10/2 NM cable, you may have potential liability in the unlikely event someone has a serious problem.

Cheers, Wayne
 
Wayne,
I want to thank you for your patients in answering my questions. I know that 10-2 Romex with a 30 amp breaker works without problems with our system. Now, I also know that it's not according to the National Electrical Code. And, this could be extremely important with regards to insurance. If there is a fire and a code violation that caused the fire you could find yourself not covered for the damage. As to code requirements, each person needs to find that out for themselves. We don't make any recommendations as to what someone else should do for their wiring. Some communities might actually have stricter codes than the NEC while others might not have any at all. That is for each individual to determine and is the main reason we don't supply pre-wired systems with plugs or any electrical enclosures.

Ed
 
Just curious, what Rating method does NEC specify for determining a 5hp motor, (and no I am not being an idiot, I couldn't believe this was true at first either). For instance, my shop vac says it is 5hp, but it runs on a standard 110 outlet (obviously nowhere near 5hp). Compressor motors are similarly screwy in that a 5hp compressor motor is not the same as an industrial 5hp induction motor. Also, are we talking 5hp output or 5hp input, I hope it is input otherwise the motor efficiency needs to come into play. Unfortunately, there is no standardized method IN INDUSTRY for determining HP (any 2nd year engineering student can determine HP but then the Marketing guys get involved and the laws of physics seem to go out the window). Different countries even do it differently. US is generally input power, so a 5hp motor that is 80%efficent only produces 4hp of mechanical power while using 5hp of electrical power. Over in Europe, its the oposite, a 4hp motor that is 80% efficient, really produces 4hp of mechanical power, but it uses 5hp of electrical power. The US motor sounds more powerful, but in reality they are the same motor (thanks marketing guys).

Secondly, in reference to the 70amp breaker, I believe you neglected to mention that to use that 70amp breaker would require the wire size to be similarly increased, since wire size is not determined by intended load, but by level of fault protection (which is what Ed was talking about).

Dave
 
HP

HP

daxinarian,
Note that the shop vac guys are careful to write peak horsepower. They use a fast current measuring device like a current transformer feeding an oscilloscope. Then they measure the peak current at turn-on, multiply by 120 volts, and divide by 746 watts per horsepower. Maybe I'd do the same if I had to make a living selling shop vacs! A similar game is played with portable generator ratings.
bababrown
 
Tool manufactures basically lie through their teeth. Yes technically what they claim is the truth, but it sure aint the whole truth, and they present it in a way that is intentionally misleading.

But back to the original question... A good place to find out about the nitty gritty parts of the NEC is the "DIY-chatroom". The guys over there are well informed and very helpfull. Just make sure you have the info they need... (Motor specs like HP and Amp ratings on the motor plate)
Also, letting them know your location can be helpfull sometimes (in some locations, like Huntsville, AL, the required code is a few... ahem... many years out of date)
 
daxinarian said:
Just curious, what Rating method does NEC specify for determining a 5hp motor
Click to expand...
The motor itself should have a nameplate on it showing the rated HP. Ignore any spurious claims from shop vac salespeople.

daxinarian said:
Secondly, in reference to the 70amp breaker, I believe you neglected to mention that to use that 70amp breaker would require the wire size to be similarly increased, since wire size is not determined by intended load, but by level of fault protection
Click to expand...
No, that is the one of the points of this discussion. The breaker on a motor circuit is not required to provide overload protection for the branch circuit, unlike most other branch circuits. So you often end up with a situation where the breaker is larger than the ampacity of the branch circuit conductors.

Cheers, Wayne
 
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