Nano-fibre media

D

Don01

New member
Anyone have any comments on nano-fibre media?
My head still does not understand how less square footage of spun bond is better than more square footage of blend - other than easier cleaning.

I have not heard much about them for dust, but there are some fantastic reviews with respect to water filtration.
I know nothing of the design so would be afraid of packing the media full of dust as a result of the occasional over flow.

Penn State are flogging a nano-fibre canister and Wynn have them as well.

Don
 
Nanofiber filters

Nanofiber filters

Wynn sells them in the same size and style as the 9L300s. They carry a MERV15 rating vs a MERV10 rating for the blend filter. They claim 99.999% at 0.5micron vs 99.99 for the blend. I haven't seen the claim for smaller area but Wynn says the fiber is 50% smaller which should reduce resistance at any given airflow. If I need to replace my filters at some point I think I would go with a pair of the nanofiber filters.
bababrown
 
Nano fiber filters

Nano fiber filters

I am interested in three things re nano fiber filters. How fast do they load up, how easy / difficult are they to clean, and how well do they filter small particles. Any info you can supply in the future will be of interest to all of us as this is a hot issue.
bababrown
 
Here is a helpful link I found that gives the specs required for different MERV numbers. http://allergyclean.com/article-understandingmerv.htm So a MERV 15 will capture 85 to 95% of the 0.3 to 1 micron particles and at least 90 percent of everything larger. This is much better than the filters commonly recommended. Gorbash84, do you have a Dylos to test how much actually comes through them?
I also am really interested in the "How fast do they load up?" and "How easy/difficult are they to clean?" questions. From what I have read they will load up much faster than the others too (since they are capturing the finest dust that the other let through more). I wonder how this works out in real life?
 
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Sorry, no fancy tools to measure if any dust is making it through. I guess I jumped the gun saying they were great, all I am going by is observations so far.
We just got the filters installed into a box to quiet things down and have only cut a small amount of wood to test them out, some pine and some particle board. We figured the particle board is about as fine of dust as our shop would ever generate. I stood by the outlet in the dark with a red laser pointer shining through the exhaust stream while my father fed particle board dust into the system. A red laser is too weak to be seen by the human eye unless there are particles in the air to reflect the beam. All through the test I did not see anything at all in the exhaust air stream. We opened up the filter box to check the clean-out compartment, and saw that a very small amount of super crazy fine dust had settled in the bottom. I mean this stuff was like graphite powder, insanely fine. I guess the cyclone did its job and pulled most of the dust out and into the collection bin, and whatever was left got separated out by the filters.

As far as restriction goes, at first we were running the system with no filters at all and were venting outside, but dad was unhappy with the system's ability to completely remove all heated air from the shop in 3 minutes. :)

We bought the filters and routed the exhaust inside to keep our warm or cool air where it belongs. Before the filters and after the filters, performance seems unchanged. We can cut on the table saw all day and have almost zero dust to sweep up afterward.

Maybe after using the system for a few months I can report back about loading up the filters and cleaning them.
 
I'm thinking of buying a pair of these nano-fiber filters as well... I've clogged my old set pretty good!

My question/thought for everyone is do you think it is worthwhile to have 4 filters instead of 2? Does/will it make any difference?

Reasoning for doing this is because I already the original pair and I want to rework the way I have my filters to be more like the way Erik in Belgium did with his - to have them filtering from the outside in. I'm also going to get those overbags too. It is just brutal trying to clean these suckers out when you have the air filtering from the inside out. So before I commit to a new design, I thought I would give these filters a run and possibly build an enclosure that can hold the 4 filters as opposed to 2
 
If I had 4 filters and the space to use them all at once, I would use all four. Seems to me like the extra square footage would only be helpful in the filtering process. The air, if distributed evenly through all 4 filters would be able to move at a lower CFM. Perhaps this would allow smaller particles to be trapped instead of pushed through? Also the accumulation of dust on the filters would be spread out over 4 filters instead of 2, so you would need to clean them half as often? Just my 2 cents.
 
Nano-fiber filters

Nano-fiber filters

Crafted and others,
Supposedly these new filters are surface loading filters versus the older depth loading filters. So they are supposed to be easier to clean. If you read some of the articles on them the dust just falls off by itself! Of course manufacturers are writing this stuff! But it makes sense that they are easier to clean. To my knowledge none of us have much if any experience with them so I would go slow until we gain knowledge. I think 4 filters is overkill but going from 2 to 4 filters should increase the time between cleanings by 4.
bababrown
 
Hmm... Haven't checked this for a while and looks like I forgot the link in my first post. I've put it there now but here it is again: http://allergyclean.com/article-understandingmerv.htm
We also have changed over to an enclosed box and are filtering outside in, the way the filters are meant to work. The fact is that if you use your cyclone much at all, you WILL get dust in the filters and you WILL have to clean them out at some point. You cannot get them very clean when you are using them backwards, and if, no WHEN, you overfill them (everyone does it at least once) you won't get all the chips back out. At least if you filter from inside out you aren't working against the nature of the filters.
We have things set up so to clean the filters, we use the air from the cyclone to blow backwards through one filter at a time and vent the normal inflow to our filter box outside. I believe it loosens the dust somewhat, but it doesn't blow it out like the pulsing of the big companies does (and like I had hoped it would). But it sure makes vacuuming the outside a whole lot easier and the filters look cleaner this way.
 
Hey Nikkels,

Have you guys posted updated pics of how you did the outside in filter arrangement? Much like Erik's setup?

Its quite true about getting dust on the inside... pretty much impossible to not do. Especially with planing wood man does it get it fast! I should take some time to plug up some of my leaks... one day!

Jason
 
Air flow through Nano filters.

Air flow through Nano filters.

Just received my CV1800 with Wynn Env. 9L300NANO filters, and was curious as to the proper direction of air flow. I contacted Wynn and was told that the NANO material is on the inside, and the correct flow is from the center to the outside. Hope this helps anyone getting NANO filters.
 
For the headache saved, I would definitely filter the air from the outside in. Who cares about the difference in filtering quality. I think it is going to be so minor to the difference it filters to bother with filtering air from the inside out. Like was said earlier, you will overflow them and if you are using them consistently they get loaded with dust on the inside.


My question to everyone do you use the overbags? Where does one get them in Canada?? Don1, R&D, Erik??? Any idea. I am in the process of finally converting my filters to filter from the inside out and definitely want to use the overbags.
 
Crafted said:
For the headache saved, I would definitely filter the air from the outside in. Who cares about the difference in filtering quality. I think it is going to be so minor to the difference it filters to bother with filtering air from the inside out. Like was said earlier, you will overflow them and if you are using them consistently they get loaded with dust on the inside.


My question to everyone do you use the overbags? Where does one get them in Canada?? Don1, R&D, Erik??? Any idea. I am in the process of finally converting my filters to filter from the inside out and definitely want to use the overbags.
Click to expand...

I corresponded with Erik regarding over bags. He has Donaldson elements, I have Camfil Farr Hemipleats. Erik sent me a sample of the material his over bags were made of. They are much finer than I was expecting and Erik noted that they did add some resistance.
I contacted Farr and was quoted $65.00/bag which is the price of a new element. Not necessarily a bad investment, but not at the top of my list.

I think you could obtain a prefilter mesh or cloth from any reputable industrial filter supplier. This is probably the route I will take. I only want to minimize the downside of any possible overflow, so even slightly finer than common window screen will do. You have to think that it will be quite easy to vacuum out the pleats if all of the grunge is on the outside.

With respect to the "right way to filter air through a canister". While flow from I>O (inside to out) does work, these canisters are designed for intake filtration. Look around, other than dust collection, the majority of these elements are found on the suction side of the pump or blower.
Even the big commercial setups have the filtrate collecting on the exterior of the element. Cleaning on the big units is done by pulsing air into the centre of the element.

When you speak of quality, I would guess flowing from O>I should support better filtration quality as the surface area has better exposure to the filtrate, allowing a nice even cake to be established - with out bridging the pleats.


Don
 
Thanks for the reply Don!

I'm thinking I'll call up Wynn in a week or two and see if they have over-bags for their filters. I'm finally about ready to order up some new filters and I'm also in the process of finally building a new filter box to accommodate outside/in filtration. I'm just completely sick of cleaning these suckers out and don't want to be caking them up nearly as bad on the new set. So overbags it will be!

Thanks again!
 
So why are you cleaning so frequently? One of the reasons I selected Clear Vue was the excellent separation, therefore minimal dust actually getting through to the filters.You may be the first person expressing concern over overloading due to normal use.
A friend of mine builds plywood cabinets for local industries. He buys 3/4" sheetso by the lift. He is fortunate to be able to vent to the outside, but the amount of dust outside his shop is very small. You can also see the results of overflowing the waste bins also.
In order to trap the finest particles you need to establish a good cake. If you read the Nikkel's post following their changeout to the Farr Hemipleat, the amount of coarse dust flowing through their system was not sufficient to build a good cake.
Be careful, as your filters can be to clean in order to function at the .5 micron and smaller level.



Don
 
A couple things from our research and experience. The NANO material is added to one side of the filter or the other. Since a lot of the "hobbyist" users filter inside to out, the companies complied and put the NANO material on the inside for those filtering that way. Therefore, if you want to filter from the outside to in using NANO filters, you probably need to make that clear when you purchase them so you get the NANO material on the outside of the filter.
We went to the outside to in filtering because of the hassle cleaning the filters. Yes, we have dust in our filters. The extra dust coming through our filters was when they were brand new, which is why I researched what the real meaning behind the claims was. That thread is here: http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/Bullentin/showthread.php?t=1190 When we had used the system for a bit, the readings dropped to acceptable levels again.
However, the idea of a cake doing the filtering rather than the filters has its drawback - loss of CFM. It inhibits air flow all the along the system so you aren't getting as good pick up at the source. It is one of those "finding the balance" things. Cake isn't good, but it is necessary for most filters out there. NANO filters don't need the cake to filter well, but they will clog up and inhibit air flow very quickly if you get much dust in your filters. We figure that since filtering outside to in is how the filters were originally designed to be used, and it is how they clean easier (information from Wynn), that is the way we changed our set up to go.
Sorry, Crafted, we haven't got the pictures up yet. You can see some of the set up here: http://www.rodnikkel.com/content/in...nd-desk/it-s-the-dust-that-kills-tree-makers/ though I do want to redo our gallery in this site. It is on the list...
So why do we have dust in our filters? I am starting a new topic on that (Dust in the filters) with some conclusions we have come to after using the system hard for 4 1/2 years.
 
Thanks for the posts Don and R&D!

It is near impossible to get all the dust but it sure will help to get the overbags and to make sure I order the filters with the nano material on the outside of the filters. I agree with you there is a fine balance to getting the filters caked to the correct amount. I make a ton of dust as well and realize I am more an exception to the rule such as R&D are. Thanks for your posts and all your valuable info!
 
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